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Sharks v Reds Rnd 5 2014

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Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
BDA agree with your post

The question for me

Is Horwill the right bloke for captaincy of the Reds ????

He just doesn't appear to be the bloke to get into the Refs ear/
 

convenient wisdom

Allen Oxlade (6)
quick points

if you are a back in a Jake White team, your only role is to chase box kicks, tackle and kick penalties from 50 metres. Forget about running or passing.

Sharks will not win many outside of SA.

Did Alberts knee Liam Gill in the head in a ruck around the 60 minute mark?

Aidan Toua is an elite athlete, no question. is he an elite rugby player ..........maybe not.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
I'm beginning to think that you only see what you want to see. Harris had a great game. He bombed a try but he was not the only one to drop a pill last night. The handling errors were all over the shop. That's what happens in 300% humidity.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the warm embrace. For my part, I am beginning to think that you and some others here are becoming wilfully blind to routine Reds mediocrity of overall game execution and/or are now lowering your own expectations of the appropriate Reds' standards as championship contenders and thus excusing or rationalising away all manner of team deficiencies, some of which have been evident throughout late 2012 and again through 2013.

Re Harris. I accept that you consider a 'net zero' tries outcome for Harris in this game combined with some good running lines (within the context of a Reds attack that was at best inconsistent in this game) as equal to 'having a great game', but I'd respectfully disagree is all. IMO, doing a solid job re what a 12 should do as a base line expectation as a professional player is just that, a baseline.

Also, no way do I accept that predictably highly humid conditions in Durban are valid excuses for dropping balls on near-certain tries and generally poor handling contributing to a lost match. I have been to numerous early season February-March games at Suncorp when we had very high humidity and this did not automatically result in bombed tries and high levels of handling errors. The Reds of all teams should be less prone to humidity dropsies than most given Brisbane's hot and mostly humid summer climate and with that affecting/conditioning almost the whole of pre-season training from October onwards, as well as the early season home S15 matches.
 
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wamberal

Phil Kearns (64)
I thought the Reds did pretty well. This was a game that they surely did not expect to win ( a top team away from home, first game in Africa after a long flight), but they were not far away from getting a result.

Scrum surprised me, I thought the level of effort all over the field was great.

As for the refereeing, people should stop complaining about it. It's about as much use as complaining about the weather.
 
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tranquility

Guest
Thanks for the warm embrace. For my part, I am beginning to think that you and some others here are becoming wilfully blind to routine Reds mediocrity of overall game execution and/or are now lowering your own expectations of the appropriate Reds' standards as championship contenders and thus excusing or rationalising away all manner of team deficiencies, some of which have been evident throughout late 2012 and again through 2013.

Re Harris. I accept that you consider a 'net zero' tries outcome for Harris in this game combined with some good running lines (within the context of a Reds attack that was at best inconsistent in this game) as equal to 'having a great game', but I'd respectfully disagree is all. IMO, doing a solid job re what a 12 should do as a base line expectation as a professional player is just that, a baseline.

Also, no way do I accept that predictably highly humid conditions in Durban are valid excuses for dropping balls on near-certain tries and generally poor handling contributing to a lost match. I have been to numerous early season February-March games at Suncorp when we had very high humidity and this did not automatically result in bombed tries and high levels of handling errors. The Reds of all teams should be less prone to humidity dropsies than most given Brisbane's hot and mostly humid summer climate and with that affecting/conditioning almost the whole of pre-season training from October onwards, as well as the early season home S15 matches.

Harris played well, let's all be honest here. Smile big guy.
 
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tranquility

Guest
You don't play well when you drop a gimme 7 pointer

That's not true. Dropping a sitter does not cancel out 73 minutes of contribution, where he also scored a try, was resolute in defense and ran penetrating lines all night. That's not to say I don't think Taps should be at 12, but we have pretty good depth in that spot.
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
Thanks for the warm embrace. For my part, I am beginning to think that you and some others here are becoming wilfully blind to routine Reds mediocrity of overall game execution and/or are now lowering your own expectations of the appropriate Reds' standards as championship contenders and thus excusing or rationalising away all manner of team deficiencies, some of which have been evident throughout late 2012 and again through 2013.

Like I said, you'll only see what you want to see. You're so deeply entrenched in your doomsday view that you can't appreciate the good points. Of course it's wilful blindness on everyone else's part and that there's nothing at all extreme about your position.

Re Harris. I accept that you consider a 'net zero' tries outcome for Harris in this game combined with some good running lines (within the context of a Reds attack that was at best inconsistent in this game) as equal to 'having a great game', but I'd respectfully disagree is all. IMO, doing a solid job re what a 12 should do as a base line expectation as a professional player is just that, a baseline.

My initial reply was responding to your view that Harris was totally inadequate but in this recent reply you said he did a solid job. This goes back to my comment above that I think you may be too blinkered by your view that the Reds are dying a slow death to objectively assess players performance sometimes.

Also, no way do I accept that predictably highly humid conditions in Durban are valid excuses for dropping balls on near-certain tries and generally poor handling contributing to a lost match. I have been to numerous early season February-March games at Suncorp when we had very high humidity and this did not automatically result in bombed tries and high levels of handling errors. The Reds of all teams should be less prone to humidity dropsies than most given Brisbane's hot and mostly humid summer climate and with that affecting/conditioning almost the whole of pre-season training from October onwards, as well as the early season home S15 matches.

This is just ridiculous. Do you think that Queenslanders should somehow be more evolved due to our proximity to the tropics to somehow have skin on our hands that is stickier than that of players of other franchises? When it's humid the ball is slippery - this is a fact. It doesn't matter where on the field the players are either. They can be in the middle of a pitch or diving over the line and can spill the ball. Both teams did it.
I too have been been to many early season matches at Suncorp with high humidity and they have almost always been marred by poor handling. I have also played in many games in humid conditions here and further north and humidity (plus sweat) makes the ball slippery.
 

Brumby Jack

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
For those that missed or didn't see the live version, here is the exchange between Jannie du Plessis and Lourens van der Merwe over the binding issue.


Now my Afrikaans isn't great but I've been told that JdP basically tells the ref not to lecture on him on how to bind and name drops Paddy O'Brien on being given the ok.

Not sure I've ever seen someone stay on the field after a spray like that.
 

Bullrush

John Hipwell (52)
For those that missed or didn't see the live version, here is the exchange between Jannie du Plessis and Lourens van der Merwe over the binding issue.


Now my Afrikaans isn't great but I've been told that JdP basically tells the ref not to lecture on him on how to bind and name drops Paddy O'Brien on being given the ok.

Not sure I've ever seen someone stay on the field after a spray like that.


That is absolutely terrible. There really should be some kind of action taken - surely you cannot speak to a ref like that?!
 

Bruwheresmycar

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
Well the ref initiated the conversation. When JdP wont listen he simply ends it. Hard to see a problem. Good to see them trying to talk props out of penalties rather than just blowing the scrums up for reasons the front rowers don't understand.
 

Brumby Jack

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
It wasn't their first of the match on that issue after they spoke in the first half. That footage was just before he was dragged too.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Well the ref initiated the conversation. When JdP wont listen he simply ends it. Hard to see a problem. Good to see them trying to talk props out of penalties rather than just blowing the scrums up for reasons the front rowers don't understand.

Good for the ref to open communication but if he did it enough to talk about it I would have thought he'd have been penalised at least once first. I don't recall this happening.

I also don't recall the ref being so open with the reds players.

It was a really bad look for someone who is meant to be neutral.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
Well the ref initiated the conversation. When JdP wont listen he simply ends it. Hard to see a problem. Good to see them trying to talk props out of penalties rather than just blowing the scrums up for reasons the front rowers don't understand.
I also think its great that the referee talks to the players about things, but here's where things get messy:

If the referee warns a player for not binding, but never actually penalises the player for doing so, and subsequently allows said player to lecture him on the dark arts in a most heated fashion and the fails to penalise that player afterwards for that which he was warned, it creates a bad look.

If the referee penalises and speaks to one player about committing one high tackle and then completely ignores one committed by the other team, but instead finds another penalty to call that gives the home team some points, it creates a bad look.

If the referee continually dismisses the captain and vice captain of the visiting teams, but allows any of the home team players to talk at length about anything (and even admonish him), it does not create a good look.

If the referee gives a warning to the visiting team after being told off by the home team for something that the referee has not seen fit to penalise (nor speak about) all game, and then immediately penalises and sends off a visiting team player for that same infringement, it does not create a good look.

If the referee penalises the visiting team 50% more than the home team for technical infringements in the ruck and offside whilst the home team do not get penalised for the same infringements even though they are committing them, it does not create a good look.

Any one of the above doesn't create a good look.

Considering that all of the above took place in one game and it is perhaps not hard to see why the reds management and players (reportedly) feel a little out of sorts with how the game was handled. In the heat of the game, I really don't know what reds players must have been thinking.

To my eyes (and knowing the outcome prior to watching the match), I was rekatively dispassionate about the game, and thought that the referee was mostly pretty ok throughout. But the referee is not managing a lazy prick sitting on a couch the following morning, he is managing guys that maybe are starting to see a red mist - and he needs to be wary of how things might appear to them.

Did any of that cause the reds to lose? No. Dropping that ball when the try line was open lost the reds the game.

On the back of a previous game where two of the three opposition tries were scored off the back of blatant offside and forward passes as well as conversion kicks allowed when they went underneath the crossbar, and I think its fair for reds fans to have a little bit of a vent.

Clearly the reds have been penalised a lot this season, and they are getting a name for it. How much will that affect the upcoming games? Referees are human too, and surely they will now be on the lookout for reds infringements - and therein lies the problem. You don't have to look hard at all to find infringements in rugby and if you are concentrating on one team you are going to miss a lot of infringements by the other team.
 
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harrysboy

Guest
I'm not a Reds fan, so I think I can say this reasonably impartially ...
The Referee, Lourens van der Merwe, was (perhaps unintentionally) biased towards the Sharks. On several occasions he made decisions that seemed unfairly harsh on the Reds and favourable to the Sharks. As a fan, it is getting very frustrating. When will SANZAR wake up and appoint neutral referees to these games?!?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
When will SANZAR wake up and appoint neutral referees to these games?!?

I think the combination of cost and the burden on the referees of being flown back and forth constantly makes it unlikely to change anytime soon.

It's not like a neutral referee would fly from NZ to South Africa several days before the game to recover from jet lag etc. as they have generally have other obligations than just refereeing on the weekend.
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
To ensure fairness and unbiased decisions all referees should come from Queensland - good example, although in League is " The Grasshopper"
 
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tranquility

Guest
I think the combination of cost and the burden on the referees of being flown back and forth constantly makes it unlikely to change anytime soon.

It's not like a neutral referee would fly from NZ to South Africa several days before the game to recover from jet lag etc. as they have generally have other obligations than just refereeing on the weekend.

Why do they? Surely that is where the majority of their income comes from, ie their job..
 
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