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Should there be a 2nd Tier RWC

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TOCC

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I read an article about this recently and i think there is real merit behind having a 'tier 2' RWC, the IRB already has a similar thing for the Junior World Championship(Tier 1) and the Junior World Trophy(Tier 2).

Something like this:
Rugby World Cup(16 teams)
World Rugby Trophy(10 teams)

4 teams are dropped from the Rugby World Cup but i think 16 teams is a more accurate reflection of the competition. Winner of the World Rugby Trophy automatically qualifies for the following Rugby World Cup.

Thoughts?
Is it better having countries lose by 90points in the most prestigious competition or be competitive in a lesser comp?
 

S120

Chris McKivat (8)
Interesting.

Just spit-balling, but to incentivise teams in the 2nd comp, you could have the WRT every 4 years, 2 years out from the RWC with the winner given automatic entry into the RWC as the 16th side perhaps. That creates further questions for the next WRT, but it could work I think.

A big question would be who would want to host and run this tournament if the best sides are not present to bring crowds in.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Interesting idea - and the one about playing it 2 years out from RWC, though maybe it would be more beneficial to play it the year before RWC?

Think it would definitely need to be based in Europe as a starting point. When you look at the rankings from 17 onwards:

Romania
Canada
Russia
Uruguay
Spain
Portugal
Namibia
Korea
Germany
Zimbabwe

5 in Europe, 2 in Africa, 2 in Americas, 1 Asia.

Only issue you're going to have is getting all the players together. But two pools of 5 is a good look, means everyone gets at least 4 pool games, plus you can play semis and finals for each group of 4 (plus bottom 2) for final ranking.

The amateur nature of a lot of players means they'd have to compress it down to those 4 games + finals over about three weeks. Big commitment.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I read an article about this recently and i think there is real merit behind having a 'tier 2' RWC, the IRB already has a similar thing for the Junior World Championship(Tier 1) and the Junior World Trophy(Tier 2).

Something like this:
Rugby World Cup(16 teams)
World Rugby Trophy(10 teams)

4 teams are dropped from the Rugby World Cup but i think 16 teams is a more accurate reflection of the competition. Winner of the World Rugby Trophy automatically qualifies for the following Rugby World Cup.

Thoughts?
Is it better having countries lose by 90points in the most prestigious competition or be competitive in a lesser comp?

I completely agree. Another thing it would do is it would allow daily matches during the pool stages. I was overseas during the soccer world cup and one thing was that every night in prime time there were matches from different pools. The soccer world cup has more pools and the game is less physical allowing less time between matches, so under the current RWC structure, this isn't possible.

Two tournaments, running in tandem would probably allow this. What it does is keep the tournament in the media every day and builds interest from fringe supporters and the curious. Having 2 or 3 days with nothing much happening, just means the whole thing loses a bit of momentum.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Interesting.

Just spit-balling, but to incentivise teams in the 2nd comp, you could have the WRT every 4 years, 2 years out from the RWC with the winner given automatic entry into the RWC as the 16th side perhaps. That creates further questions for the next WRT, but it could work I think.

A big question would be who would want to host and run this tournament if the best sides are not present to bring crowds in.

They'd have to be run at the same time in the same place for it to work for logistical and financial reasons.
 

Wilson

David Codey (61)
More definitely needs to be done to bring some of the lower ranked countries up to speed, but I think they and the middle grouping (USA, Canada, Japan, Romania, Georgia) need exposure to top flight rugby more than anything else. I'm not sure any proposal that sees the number of teams at the world cup reduced isn't a backwards step.

The idea I really like is regional tournaments like soccer's Euro cup. You could for example split rugby by hemisphere and have a northern and southern (or possibly eastern and western for variety and tv ratings) tournament in between world cups, ideally looking to include 24+ teams overall so more teams are involved then the 20 in a world cup. The problem with this, or any option that involves top tier teams is fitting it in the already packed schedule, which may mean the 2 world cups model is more achievable.
 

Jason Little

Bob McCowan (2)
I wrote this at the beginning of 2003, so if you could be bothered, try to read with that in mind whilst at the same time note how applicable some points are today, and what we might have had had anyone listened back then. (Well, it was praised in the forums by fans, but obviously not management). The last RWC was hailed as a great success as there were many closer games. But not enough. Anyway..

"The format for the world cup is a joke. And so, as it appears, are the
tests over the other three-and-a-half years. Organise a proper ranking
system. Give the top ranking teams more advantage in the world cup. If
they're top ranking, they probably deserve to be in the final anyway.
(Throughout the 4 year intervals, properly organised tests or
preferably bi or tri annually spaced tours, similar to the days of
old, would be played. World cup rankings could be displayed with the
coverage - just like regular points in a competition. Like a big
worldwide competition! For example: "Tonight a win for the brazen
Irish could have them within one game of a coveted top 3 ranking!"

I'm not entirely sure yet of how the advantages of a high ranking can be
reaped in the world cup itself yet, apart from a slightly easier draw
as listed below. In a world cup where the venue must be earlier
established, one can't award a home semi-final. Maybe, for example, in
the case of a tie on the ladder, rather than decide it on points for
and against, send the top ranking team through. Using this system, the
World Cup could be held over the same time period or perhaps a week
extras it is now. And this is how it would appear, on current ratings:

DIVISION 1:
Group A

NEW ZEALAND (1)
AUSTRALIA (4)
ENGLAND (6)
WALES (8)
SAMOA (10)

Group B
FRANCE (2)
SOUTH AFRICA (3)
ARGENTINA (5)
IRELAND (7)
ITALY (9)

Each team from A play each other. 4 games over 3 weeks. The winner of
A plays the runner up of B and vise versa. Doing the math’s, it looks
like New Zealand have had a fairly easy run of things just having to
beat Australia (not as good a team but always a wildcard when New
Zealand is concerned) and most likely France (rather than an
over-confident Springbok team that can't play in Europe and who didn't
get a good enough combination together due to the passing of an
opportunity to play some solid full-strength games in the Tri-Nations
series). But that's OK, New Zealand, as top of the rankings, deserve to
be at the top anyway. They still have to win a best of Three for the
right to hold the world cup, which, if you look at it like this, has
been in the making for the last 4 years. To be top ranked after 4 years
of consistent wins is a big achievement.

A possible outcome, Division 1, Group A, after the first stage to
simply demonstrate the protocol:

NZ: 4 Wins, 3 bonus Points =15
AUS: 2 wins, 2 bonus Point = 10
WALES: 2 wins, 2 bonus Points = 10
SAMOA: 2 wins, 1 bonus Point =9
ENG: 0 wins, in danger of relegation to Division 2. (see below)

NZ and AUS go through. AUS by advantage of superior rankings at the beginning of the world cup. England, were, in
my indulgent scenario, beaten by both Wales and Samoa, a just revenge
from the preceding world cup. Had these teams benefited from some
better refereeing, a bigger budget and better fitness (which comes
from a superior budget), we may have seen one of the rarities in the
current world cup format: an upset. But it also goes to show that with
this current format, the title 'World Champions' is a misnomer.

But back to the plan. You might think that the 2-3 week period
deciding the champions will be too empty while everyone sits around in
France on their World Cup packages. Think again. On separate days
there are play offs for third and fourth (a 3 test series also, which
should produce some scintillating rugby in its own right) AS WELL as
the same thing going on in Division 2 & 3 (and 4).

Division 2 may see Scotland playing Fiji and USA up against Georgia.
Back to the Cold War! Reminds me of the big Olympic ice hockey
match up! And, this game is a true big test match on the World Stage!
AND, here's the clincher: The world gets to see Georgia in a thriller rather
than being decimated by 100 points! In fact, the whole world Cup will
produce close games. Every day! Upsets even! Every team can attend!
Portugal play Korea and Namibia V Hong Kong in the 3rd division! The top 2 from
these divisions could always play the bottom 2 from the division
above! So many possibilities! And most of the players could return
home afterwards with a win under their belt. They could have a good
time and go back to their local teams with some pride and stories of
glory rather than the humiliation of cremation in a (non)contest which
promises a thumping from seven guys who could have won the Boer War
simply by trampling the enemy or the fruitless chases of Joe
Rokocoko's dust all the soul-sapping afternoon.

There's enough rugby fields in any of the host countries. Hell, we
could have Columbia versus Serbia for the 4th division tie down at the
local Old Boys oval! Imagine the nutso soccer fans all driving down to
the pitch in their countries' colours and going at each other! Great stuff!
I know I'm starting to sound like a more fanciful idea created by the
intrepid minds of Roy & H.G, but the real winner here is rugby!
Remember the story about the game which had to be re-scheduled and the Tasmanian mayor (was it?) put his hand up? They got Namibia v Romania if I remember correctly. Half the town of Launceston showed up. Teachers (who else?) organised colours to be
distributed evenly so the whole crowd had someone to cheer for. The
game was a pearler. A three way friendship was developed. Invitations
to return for a rematch, houses opened up. Friends and hospitable
promises made. Nice.

To return to the serious part: Each top 3 in their division are
awarded with extra rankings points to give them a head start for the
next world cup, and a nice chunk of prizemoney to develop the
structure in that particular country. It would resemble the relegation
system in Europe. Scotland and Fiji, might move up, for example. With the
new found winning status, more interest is garnered and more funds
roll in to help the cause. Local business gets behind it. There's a
resurgence in the game at home. It's a rolling stone that gathers
something green. Not moss, but bucks. Minnow teams have a goal. The
country backs them. There are wildly fanatic fans of English Division
4 soccer teams who dream of that promotion. With every small step..

There could be another World Power in the Pacific if the players were
contracted for internationals on a State of Origin basis. NZ and
Australia don't need Fijian wingers. Honestly. They do. We could have
used Joe Roff when he went to France, and I understand it's to protect
the Super 14 (or 12 as it was), but now New Zealand have corrupted
that competition, also for world cup, ahem, glory. The IRU should stop
acting like politicians and distribute the money instead. And crack
down on coaches like Sir Clive. Like politicians should be, and
generally aren't, the IRU has a responsibility to further the game's
interests rather than keeping the cash up for the top 6 or 7
superpowers. With the way things are going, nobody is going to show up
for the clash between two superpowers in just over a week
anyway. We're all losing interest. The stadiums aren't full anyway. Why buy a ticket in advance if you're concerned you might be ripped off? Because that's what's happening to the true Rugby fans.

Now, if all which I've outlined actually happened, and we could all
get a ticket to a world cup game, no matter how far down the
divisions, the whole WORLD would be interested, just as we non-soccer
fans were last year. And if all that happened, if you
won the World Cup, after 4 years of qualifying and out of maybe 80
teams, wouldn't you be truly able to stand up and say
"We're World Champions"?
 

Aussie D

Dick Tooth (41)
I've thought for a number of year a 4 yearly amateur rugby world cup - made up entirely of amateur players, though some countries outside the top 2 tiers could be given dispensation, could go well. Make it a 32 team tournament (similar to the dive-ballers) and hold it in countries that are not big enough to host the world cup, Ireland for instance or the Pacific Islands. Countries like Australia and New Zealand could send 'resident' sides made up of players who've never played Super Rugby. In Oz the ARU could bring back the old Australian Rugby Shield and select sides from there.
 

Omar Comin'

Chilla Wilson (44)
I think reducing the number of teams at the world cup would slow the growth of international rugby rather than increase it. For the tier 2 teams to miss out on the world cup would limit the exposure of the sport in those countries. No one would be interested in the 2nd level tournament. Qualifying for the world cup gets them more sponsorship, thus more money into their systems, and puts their players on the world stage, which gives them a chance to win professional contracts and ultimately improve the national team.

If you're going to have a world rugby trophy do it without reducing the number of teams in the main world cup. The next level teams need more matches against top sides, not less.

I prefer the regional tournaments idea. Or even just have 2. A European Cup and some form of Continental Cup with all the non-European teams. Both could have 12 teams.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
I agree Omar - no one would be interested in second tier cup and second tier nations would miss out benefit of playing in a more world wide competition against best and the world which is what would build profile of ruby in those countries and interest to watch it....
 

Omar Comin'

Chilla Wilson (44)
The next change in the actual world cup format should be an increase in teams not a decrease.

24 teams with 6 pools of 4 (so no unfair scheduling in the pools) with pool winners plus 2 wildcards making the quarter finals. And maybe teams 9-16 after the pool matches could play for some form of plate trophy. That or you could play a round of 16. So top 2 in each pool plus 4 wildcards.

At the moment I think there's probably another 4 or 5 teams at approximately the same level as Namibia and Uruguay - the likes of Russia, Zimbabwe, Portugal and Spain. Once these teams are lifted to the level of Georgia/USA/Canada/Romania it'd be feasible I think.
 

Rugbynutter39

Michael Lynagh (62)
yes was thinking same ie rugby sevens type idea....not sure though would commercially work as also including too many tier 2 nations could dilute the product....
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I wouldn't agree with reducing the number of teams in the RWC, I'd rather see a plan to expand the number of competing nations. With that in mind a second tier RWC could work by getting teams ready to step up to an expanded RWC.

Moving teams down from the RWC to the 2nd tier competition doesn't make sense to me. Who in their right mind would give up a spot at the top table to go play in the 2nd tier? Then the prize for winning the 2nd tier? You can have your spot back at the top table for one tournament.

You just have to look at how hard teams fight to avoid relegation (in the Aviva and Top 14) to see how much teams prefer to be at the top table.

Where a 2nd tier competition could work is giving teams that have never, or very rarely, played in a RWC a chance to win a spot. If the RWC were expanding to 24 teams then a 2nd tier competition would be a good way to determine who the 4 new teams would be. The semi-finalist could be the 4 qualifiers with their final positions determining which pool they go into.
 

Highlander35

Andrew Slack (58)
Perhaps you cut the Repechege, 2nd Americas Spot, and 2nd European Spot, then play the Secondary RWC the year beforehand, with 16 teams, the winner, 2nd place and 3rd place qualifying.

Or expansion could work too.
 

Muglair

Alfred Walker (16)
For a long time I have been thinking along some of these lines.

I would love to see as many teams at the RWC as possible but do not think it serves any purpose having teams being thrashed.

There is a big drop off after about team #12. I think over the last 3 World Cups there has been an improvement in say, teams 9-12, and also from #13-#20.

If you had two divisions of 12 there would be a lot of good meaningful rugby for the teams ranked 13-24. I would go two pools of 6 based on rankings and then you do not need quarter finals. I think 3 divisions of 10 or 12 would be even better. Seeing their national team being genuinely competitive on the world stage (irrespective of division) must be a huge shot in the arm for the local development of rugby.

Of course all of this would cut into the profits. While some might say that profits are ploughed into global rugby development there has to be the potential that the RWC Company (already a bit unaccountable and shrouded in mystery) will end up like FIFA and the IOC. Might be good to take the profits away now.

This would also require greater emphasis on ranking so greater regulation will be required to enforce more regular competition and also tours by Tier 1 ranked nations development type teams to lower tier countries. Some change will happen though. The Russians, Chinese and Yanks are coming. The NFL concussion thing could have a huge effect on rugby. While there are still risks the lack of helmets takes a lot of the existing impacts away
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
I don't think that anyone has suggested decreasing the number of teams. What I'm suggesting is that the current format continues for the teams in the top 20; i.e. 4 pools of 5. All my suggestion does is runs a competiton for the next 12 teams at the same time. Bringing the number of teams competing to 32.

The purpose is 3-fold;

1 ensure that there is at least one game every day during the pool stages. This builds local and international interest in the event. Currently there are gaps, which means the tournament loses momentum & exposure. This may even draw slightly more money for broadcast rights.

2 Gives the next rank of teams additional exposure at the international level, which can only raise the standard of the game in those nations.

3 Brings more nations into the event - exposes their coaches and administrators to the top level and gives those countries something to promote back home.

And there is also a possible benefit for rugby in the host nation. Those second division games could be strategically placed in smaller centres to give the locals some up close involvement with RWC. Local people all over the world have shown that they will embrace such a concept for a major event. EDIT: Think Tour de France, Olympic training venues, Soccer world cup and RWC - where teams have been placed in small towns as a training centre, the locals often adopt them as their second team.
 
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