Shute Shield 2013
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
- Start date
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2bluesfan
Nev Cottrell (35)
Gee, I knew McDougall in his junior days but I never thought he was that versatile to be able to cover those 3 players
Any word of the other substitutes? I have no info.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Gee, I knew McDougall in his junior days but I never thought he was that versatile to be able to cover those 3 players
Any word of the other substitutes? I have no info.
A decision re replacements for Tamani and TPN will be made after this weekend's Shute Shield matches.
Andrew B Cox
Sydney Middleton (9)
With you on this.
Good luck Glen. The time is right, you've helped to save a club. Well done.
Belly, keep punching on.
Rugby Is My Life
Herbert Moran (7)
I struggle to understand how Sydney Uni can field the below 1st grade team on Saturday against Norths - the NSWRU rules around player points are farcical.
I admire the systems Uni have in place to continually produce talent for the 'next level' but this is ridiculous.
Sydney University:
1 Jeremy Tilse,(Waratahs)
2 Tolu Latu (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
3 Sam Talakai (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
4 Liam Winton (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
5 William Skelton (Waratahs)
6 David Dennis (Waratahs + Wallabies)
7 David Hickey (Played in the Waratahs trial vs Chiefs)
8 Tim Davidson (C) (Just retired from Rebels)
9 Nick Phipps (Waratahs 2014/Wallabies)
10 Bernard Foley (Waratahs/Wallabies squad member)
11 Greg Jeloudev (Australian Sevens)
12 Tom Carter (Just retired from Waratahs)
13 Tom English (Rebels)
14 Peter Betham (Waratahs/Wallabies squad member)
15 Tom Kingston (Rebels 2014)
Other Sydney Uni guys not included who could be:
Paddy Ryan (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Ben McMalman (Force/Wallabies)
Nic Stirzaker (Rebels)
Ollie Atkins (Waratahs)
Berrick Barnes (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Israel Folau (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Michael Hodge (Waratahs)
Pat McCutcheon (Waratahs)
Sam Carter (Brumbies)
Nathan Charles (Force)
Mitch Inman (Rebels)
Lachlan Mitchell (Rebels)
Jarrod Saffy (Rebels)
Laurie Weeks (Rebels)
I admire the systems Uni have in place to continually produce talent for the 'next level' but this is ridiculous.
Sydney University:
1 Jeremy Tilse,(Waratahs)
2 Tolu Latu (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
3 Sam Talakai (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
4 Liam Winton (Waratahs Argentina tour squad member)
5 William Skelton (Waratahs)
6 David Dennis (Waratahs + Wallabies)
7 David Hickey (Played in the Waratahs trial vs Chiefs)
8 Tim Davidson (C) (Just retired from Rebels)
9 Nick Phipps (Waratahs 2014/Wallabies)
10 Bernard Foley (Waratahs/Wallabies squad member)
11 Greg Jeloudev (Australian Sevens)
12 Tom Carter (Just retired from Waratahs)
13 Tom English (Rebels)
14 Peter Betham (Waratahs/Wallabies squad member)
15 Tom Kingston (Rebels 2014)
Other Sydney Uni guys not included who could be:
Paddy Ryan (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Ben McMalman (Force/Wallabies)
Nic Stirzaker (Rebels)
Ollie Atkins (Waratahs)
Berrick Barnes (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Israel Folau (Waratahs/Wallabies)
Michael Hodge (Waratahs)
Pat McCutcheon (Waratahs)
Sam Carter (Brumbies)
Nathan Charles (Force)
Mitch Inman (Rebels)
Lachlan Mitchell (Rebels)
Jarrod Saffy (Rebels)
Laurie Weeks (Rebels)
AdelaideRugby84
Chris McKivat (8)
I've been wondering that for years, mate.
I'm still livid that Uni was able to field an almost Super Rugby strength team against Souths in last year's Grand Final yet clubs like Parramatta and Penrith are down to the bare bones of their backside.
There have been times where the Emus get 80 put on them, how that is healthy for rugby in NSW I don't know.
It's plain wrong that Sydney University get to hoard all the top talent for themselves.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
The answer is "get em young and keep em"!
I've entered the points above for those who have played this year and you can see that most of the players have 0 or 2 points by virtue of their years of service at the same club (I assume).
The key to Uni's management of the points system is they recruit these guys from school and play them in the colts before they come into grade. 5 years service = 100% points discount.
Even if Dennis, English and Betham attracted max points (ie extra 52 points) the above team would still only total 82 points v 100 limit.
Uni are NOT rorting the system, but the system clearly does not achieve the goal of spreading the talent across the clubs.
Clearly Uni are not going to be able to fit all these players into 1st grade and 2nd grade so for some of them there will no more rugby this year.
PS: I think you've probably missed a few also eg Angus Roberts.
Late Starter
Allen Oxlade (6)
With the exception of Barnes and Folau (who I doubt will actually play club rugby) every single one of those players was a Uni player before they were Super players and almost all of them played Colts for Uni. Uni are hardly hoarding all the talent for themselves, they're the ones developing the talent. Why is it wrong that these players should continue to play for the club they have been playing for just because they have become professional players?
Rugby Is My Life
Herbert Moran (7)
Thanks Coach - I still believe something is clearly wrong and the above demonstrates NSWRU's current player points system doesn't work. No doubt I've missed several others.
I noticed ARU boss Bill Pulver's son, Angus, is playing 9 in Uni 2nd's Colts on Saturday - the kid was an Aussie schoolboy last year! Numerous stories over the years of similar situations - wouldn't it be better development to be playing 1st colts or grade at another club? At the end of the day it is the boys/parents decision but something is enticing them to stay and it's not just the rugby program.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
I have two concerns.
As I said above, some of these guys probably won't play any more rugby this year (or very little) as Uni won't be able to fit all 30 of them in. Maybe there's a case for loaning players to other clubs as is common in England in both league and soccer.
Secondly, why did Uni sign Folau this year?
I agree with you that it's unlikely he will play any club rugby but that wasn't known when Uni signed him. Why didn't they say "sorry, we already have more Super players and Wallabies than we can possibly fit into 1st grade so, although we'd love to have you, it would better for you and the game if you went to another club"?
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Angus attracts 6 points due to being an Aussie schoolboy.
Uni colts 1s and 2s have run close or equal to the points ceiling in several games this year. But by the time some of these guys reach 1st grade and pick up Super contracts they've also picked up years of service discounts.
I've said on previous posts that I believe the loyalty discount needs to be reviewed. Nobody wants to force players who have been at a club for 5 years to leave, but the discount allows that club to keep signing new players and that is why the new talent is not being spread.
Late Starter
Allen Oxlade (6)
A previous poster has listed 30 Sydney Uni players who have Super contracts or are on the fringe of the Waratahs. If you were a young player with ambitions of playing professional rugby, I'd say you'd be interested in going to the club that has produced a long line of Super rugby players.
Don't forget that it's Pulver's first year of Colts; Jake Gordon is ahead of him in 1s Colts and he's been playing a bit of First Grade this year. Pulver's still got another season in which to play first colts.
Rugby Is My Life
Herbert Moran (7)
Late Starter - point taken to a degree. Uni weren't responsible for developing talent like Dennis - they simply swooped in and grabbed the schoolboy star from Penrith for example. And I'd say the majority of club rugby lovers would agree Uni well & truly have a knack for 'hoarding all the talent for themselves'.
What I'm saying is the NSWRU player points system doesn't work, especially when the aim is to ensure fairness across the board, in ALL grades.
I know from personal experience the various incentives offered to promising youngsters to play colts at Uni. Why on earth would an Aussie schoolboy who we'd expect has Super Rugby/Sevens ambitions be playing 2's colts?
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
Why do you believe that the young guys coming out of Aussie schoolboys etc wouldn't get Super contracts if they went to another club? Most of these kids have been on the radar since they were at school and their colts and club careers are watched with great interest. Whilst there are 30+ guys playing Super rugby in Australia at any one time who have spent some time at Uni there are about another 120 who haven't and they still made it.
Late Starter
Allen Oxlade (6)
I don't know why. I personally think it would have been a great idea if he had been aligned with Parra or Penrith as that would really have promoted the game in that area.
I think it highly unlikely that a club with so many super players would pursue him just so they could have another one on their books. What is more likely is that the guy actually had a choice in the matter and decided himself which club to join.
Late Starter
Allen Oxlade (6)
I'm not saying they wouldn't get contracts if they went elsewhere; I'm just saying that Uni produces more super players than other clubs do, so that might be a factor in a young players decision on where to play if he thinks that going to Uni gives him a better chance of playing Super rugby; which statistically it does.
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
There is a perception that Uni sign players so other clubs can't have them to maintain their position of dominance. It's probably not true but I assure you a lot of people believe it. Randwick was accused of the same thing years ago and nobody believed them when they said that players migrated to the club to increase their chances of progressing to the next level either. Uni didn't have to sign Folau and they didn't have to sign Barnes or Burgess when he moved from Easts. No club is forced to take a player just because he wants to go there.
The flip side of Uni "hoarding" players is that an up and coming lad may end up frustrated playing in the 2's or 3's behind many rockstars when they know that they have a good chance of playing in the 1's and gaining experience and exposure that comes with playing at that level with another other clubs.
Last time I looked, Uni did not compel players to stay with them, and players are free to change clubs within seasons (with appropriate clearances) and are completely free to register with a different club at the start of the season.
To encourage loyalty, and to recognise the investments that clubs make in player development, there are player points "penalties" associated with a player changing clubs. I have no difficulty with that concept.
Other clubs just need to develop a programme to attract and retain talent. Manly seem to have done so. Norths, Wicks and Hobbits are catching up. The Mighty Two Blues have made awesome strides with their Colts programme this year.
Uni have a sizeable head start, but what is stopping the other clubs getting off their bums and developing a product to rival the Students.
Remember that Uni were very nearly tossed out of Shute Shield in the late 80's. The success that they are having now is due to the blood, sweat and tears grunt work that was done to bring them back from the precipice.
There are issues with how the Player Points system works, but little difference will be made if all we do is snipe at Uni and their "unfair advantage".
Last time I looked, Uni did not compel players to stay with them, and players are free to change clubs within seasons (with appropriate clearances) and are completely free to register with a different club at the start of the season.
To encourage loyalty, and to recognise the investments that clubs make in player development, there are player points "penalties" associated with a player changing clubs. I have no difficulty with that concept.
Other clubs just need to develop a programme to attract and retain talent. Manly seem to have done so. Norths, Wicks and Hobbits are catching up. The Mighty Two Blues have made awesome strides with their Colts programme this year.
Uni have a sizeable head start, but what is stopping the other clubs getting off their bums and developing a product to rival the Students.
Remember that Uni were very nearly tossed out of Shute Shield in the late 80's. The success that they are having now is due to the blood, sweat and tears grunt work that was done to bring them back from the precipice.
There are issues with how the Player Points system works, but little difference will be made if all we do is snipe at Uni and their "unfair advantage".
the coach
Bob Davidson (42)
The points penalty only applies to players who have played more than 34 first grade games across all clubs (6 points for 35-49 games, 10 points for 50 or more) so it really doesn't stop players changing clubs who can't make first grade.
I've never criticised Uni for the way they have built the club.
I'm just making the point that the current player points system has not and will not achieve the intended outcome because of the loyalty discounts. Get rid of that and clubs would have to think twice about signing every new player that comes out of school.
I like to watch
David Codey (61)
Hugh, you make it sound like Uni just mind their own business, and through no fault of their own,All these schoolboy stars,and high profile Wallabies turn up unannounced looking for a game.
That's not how it happens.
That's not how it happens.
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