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Shute Shield 2013

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fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
FP, if every club adopts the Uni model,the most highly paid players in any club will be Colts rookies,as Uni fees get gazumped by fees + accommodation etc etc.
It easy to say they develop kids through the Colts,but they aggressively recruit the best and brightest.
See how good Uni's systems are if they no longer get 1st dibs on all the Schoolboy stars.
Uni are doing nothing wrong under the current rules,but the current rules are a joke.
Any points system that is designed to spread talent,and ends up having the premiers fielding 19 Super players in the GF is clearly not working.


so how many uni colts are actually on scholarships?

how can a points system penalise players who have spent their whole senior careers with the one club?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
My point was if all the Clubs followed the Uni practice of heavy recruitment of Scholboy stars, that is the inevitable result.Market forces,supply and demand,call it what you like.
The points system needs to limit the number of Schoolboy stars any club can register.
I believe that this will reduce the number of pro's graduating out of Camperdown,and spread the talent.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Here is me defending Uni - again.

The Camperdown Corporation are not the only predatory club that approaches Schoolboy stars.

They are probably more successful at landing their catches (for the variety of reasons that barbarian has outlined on the front page of the blog).

Go to the Schools National Champs, National Under 16's, NSW Schools Under 16 or NSW Schools Opens champs at Knox and count the number of clipboards.

Many Shute Shield clubs have representatives on club duty there. So are the ARU HPU Scouts, Mungo Scouts, and School representatives on official duties.

The Rockstar schoolboys are frequently seen talking to a variety of people with clipboards.

It is not all one way traffic. Plenty of Wannabe Rockstar Parents are also seen bending the ear of a clipboard wielding persons.

NSW Junior State Champs (from U14's up) and Juniors vs Country also have a fair few clipboards present.

All clubs, not just Uni, are in the market to secure the services of talented athletes ("followed the Uni practice of heavy recruitment of Scholboy stars").

While we just focus on hating Uni and their success, the root causes of the issue will not be addressed.

Does anyone think that Uni were the only club that made a pitch to secure Izzy Folau's services?
 

I like to watch

David Codey (61)
It's not hatred, to say one club has huge advantages over its competitors.
It's not hatred to say that the existing system designed to spread the talent throughout the comp is not working.
Window dressing shits me.Either change the system to generate the changes you desire,or just abolish the pretence of any quota's.
 

Late Starter

Allen Oxlade (6)
You assume that players who play schoolboy rep rugby will automatically become senior rep rugby players regardless of what they do or where they play. Yes Uni is able to attract players with scholarships but if you think Uni are where they are simply because all the top schoolboy players end up there then you are wrong. I know the points system is a joke but it's worth noting that in the Colts 1 semi final in which Uni beat Randwick 103-5, Uni's player points were 28 and Randwick's 33. Now if Uni have no juniors as you all claim, then there can't be too many players in Uni colts who have much of a long service discount; to me this suggests that Randwick had more players in their side who had previously played representative rugby.

Uni has a fantastic program which turns good young players into excellent players. Nick Phipps was in 3rds Colts when he first came to Uni; correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he didn't play Australian schoolboys. He worked extremely hard, just like all the players at Uni do, and ultimately ended up in the Wallabies. It says something about the club however that rep players actually want to come back and play when the super season is over. Phipps, Dennis, Foley, McCalman, all of these guys could have quite easily taken it easy and passed on club rugby if they wanted to. Foley and Dennis flew back from Perth on Thursday so they could play for their club.

The fact of the matter is that Uni have more resources than other clubs which they use to build their development program. Uni has more super players not because all the good schoolboy players go there but because they develop them from colts onwards. No other club has a system that produces super rugby players like this. Every single one of the super players in Uni's team on Saturday was a Uni player before they were a super player.

The Shute Shield has become somewhat uncompetitive but there is actually a simple answer. The ARU / NSWRU / SRU needs to do their best to ensure that all other clubs in the competition have they same resources that Uni do. Uni have 3 full time coaches and access to professional strength and conditioning staff who train a number of sports at the University. Of course it takes money to do this and the ARU would have to make a commitment that the Shute Shield would be a major part of whatever 3T is established. Unfortunately that doesn't look like happening.

Uni is essentially run like a professional club. If Australian rugby wants to strengthen then they way forward isn't to weaken the strongest club but to inject enough resources into the other clubs so that they can also compete on a level playing field. I bet you would see a lot more super players coming from other clubs regardless of how good they were at school.
 

The Galah

Darby Loudon (17)
Nearly time to start the 2014 thread?

With that in mind the mail is the feud between ARU and club presidents over release of Soups will get a lot hotter yet. While divided 6/6 on player payments they are unanimous in opposing Soup clubs keeping players in their own dung heaps usually over the wishes of the players outside the top 25 each week.

Initiatives (from one very prominent club apparently) include a strike on making applications for a post SS national clubs competition and (although not an initiative - more like the bleeding obvious) preserve status quo for 2014 until the Rudd like policy/thought bubble on the run from the ARU is distilled into a considered model which genuinely reflects the interests of the 3rd tier. Clubs are rightly upset that detailed and considered submissions have apparently been ignored as the ARU presses on and the commercial interests of Soup sponsors are given preference.
 

The Galah

Darby Loudon (17)
Here is me defending Uni - again.

The Camperdown Corporation are not the only predatory club that approaches Schoolboy stars.

They are probably more successful at landing their catches (for the variety of reasons that barbarian has outlined on the front page of the blog).

Go to the Schools National Champs, National Under 16's, NSW Schools Under 16 or NSW Schools Opens champs at Knox and count the number of clipboards.

Many Shute Shield clubs have representatives on club duty there. So are the ARU HPU Scouts, Mungo Scouts, and School representatives on official duties.

The Rockstar schoolboys are frequently seen talking to a variety of people with clipboards.

It is not all one way traffic. Plenty of Wannabe Rockstar Parents are also seen bending the ear of a clipboard wielding persons.

NSW Junior State Champs (from U14's up) and Juniors vs Country also have a fair few clipboards present.

All clubs, not just Uni, are in the market to secure the services of talented athletes ("followed the Uni practice of heavy recruitment of Scholboy stars").

While we just focus on hating Uni and their success, the root causes of the issue will not be addressed.

Does anyone think that Uni were the only club that made a pitch to secure Izzy Folau's services?

Hugh now you have N F-J status you must declare a conflict of interest!
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
I admire what Uni have managed to do.

I see some clubs emulating aspects of what Uni are doing.

MMM can't push the Rockstars from Uni Colts to a 1 point GF loss with only 14 players for most of the game by assembling a bunch of mates on facebook a week or so out from the State Champs as their Under 17's managed to do. Those lads have put in a hell of a lot of effort on the training paddock and at the gym to supplement their natural abilities.

I'd like to see more clubs and colts programmes emulating that and achieving the success and loyalty that Uni manage.

I think it is a little unfair to have rockstars parachute in for the last couple of rounds and the finals in SS.

The solution could be to have SS finish in parallel with the Soup, and a second competition involving the Soup players run in parallel with the International windows. Some SS clubs may opt out of this comp and play in another "no-pros" competition possibly involving some of the better Subbies teams.

Hell why not a Uni Blue and Uni Gold team in the same competition. If they aren't going to share their players, then force them to at least spread their talent across two teams.

Uni have had access to swimming pools, gyms and ovals for ever. They were poor in the 80's, nearly getting chucked out of Shute Shield even though they had all the fantastic ovals and facilities etc. Other clubs with poor ovals, limited gyms, no club houses regularly beat them.

The change is that Uni have managed to get clever and efficient and have put together an integrated package to leverage off the facilities that they have. Combine them with club discipline and pride, tough discipline and regimented training programmes, Qualified and competent coaches and so on and you get a total professional package.

Facilities aren't everything. The West tigers Mungo club operates out of a shoebox under the Concord Grandstand and they have won a Mungoland title from there. While the facilities help, it is the total package that is important and what makes the difference.

Has anyone had a look at the sporting facilities that UNSW has? Out towards Eastgardens shops is the JD Phillips fields. Astroturf, floodlights, the works, not much expense spared there. Their Rugby Club did produce Simon Poidevin (a ring in from Goulburn Fizzy Reds Juniors), yet they languish in subbies footy.

There is no reason why UNSW Rugby club couldn't get serious with S&C programmes, Coaching regimes, talented athlete programmes, Alumni mobilisation etc and over time they could emulate the Camperdown Corporation. Jeff Sayle and the Myrtle Greens down in Brook Street probably wouldn't be very happy about it.

The facilities at Macquarie University are absolutely outstanding. They have a subbies Rugby Club. What is stopping them getting serious? Amalgamate or Rebrand Eastwood as Macquarie University.

Try Uni of the Gong and Newcastle. Same story.
 

WorkingClassRugger

David Codey (61)
I admire what Uni have managed to do.

I see some clubs emulating aspects of what Uni are doing.

MMM can't push the Rockstars from Uni Colts to a 1 point GF loss with only 14 players for most of the game by assembling a bunch of mates on facebook a week or so out from the State Champs as their Under 17's managed to do. Those lads have put in a hell of a lot of effort on the training paddock and at the gym to supplement their natural abilities.

I'd like to see more clubs and colts programmes emulating that and achieving the success and loyalty that Uni manage.

I think it is a little unfair to have rockstars parachute in for the last couple of rounds and the finals in SS.

The solution could be to have SS finish in parallel with the Soup, and a second competition involving the Soup players run in parallel with the International windows. Some SS clubs may opt out of this comp and play in another "no-pros" competition possibly involving some of the better Subbies teams.

Hell why not a Uni Blue and Uni Gold team in the same competition. If they aren't going to share their players, then force them to at least spread their talent across two teams.

Uni have had access to swimming pools, gyms and ovals for ever. They were poor in the 80's, nearly getting chucked out of Shute Shield even though they had all the fantastic ovals and facilities etc. Other clubs with poor ovals, limited gyms, no club houses regularly beat them.

The change is that Uni have managed to get clever and efficient and have put together an integrated package to leverage off the facilities that they have. Combine them with club discipline and pride, tough discipline and regimented training programmes, Qualified and competent coaches and so on and you get a total professional package.

Facilities aren't everything. The West tigers Mungo club operates out of a shoebox under the Concord Grandstand and they have won a Mungoland title from there. While the facilities help, it is the total package that is important and what makes the difference.

Has anyone had a look at the sporting facilities that UNSW has? Out towards Eastgardens shops is the JD Phillips fields. Astroturf, floodlights, the works, not much expense spared there. Their Rugby Club did produce Simon Poidevin (a ring in from Goulburn Fizzy Reds Juniors), yet they languish in subbies footy.

There is no reason why UNSW Rugby club couldn't get serious with S&C programmes, Coaching regimes, talented athlete programmes, Alumni mobilisation etc and over time they could emulate the Camperdown Corporation. Jeff Sayle and the Myrtle Greens down in Brook Street probably wouldn't be very happy about it.

The facilities at Macquarie University are absolutely outstanding. They have a subbies Rugby Club. What is stopping them getting serious? Amalgamate or Rebrand Eastwood as Macquarie University.

Try Uni of the Gong and Newcastle. Same story.


You provide a lot of good reasoning for the establishment of a Universities competition for U21's when taking into account the access to facilities. You could essentially train as a near professional while studying. Most Universities have rugby clubs, so they already have a clubs to adopt and elevate.

If the JGC works out, it would actually be an interesting option to take to create a sense of continuity from the U17s level onward. As for SS clubs forming partnerships with Uni's. It's possible but the chances it would work out similar to that of Syd Uni is very unlikely. Though there is nothing to say that several Uni's could emulate Sydney Uni if they have the will and the base behind it.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
I admire what Uni have managed to do.

I see some clubs emulating aspects of what Uni are doing.

MMM can't push the Rockstars from Uni Colts to a 1 point GF loss with only 14 players for most of the game by assembling a bunch of mates on facebook a week or so out from the State Champs as their Under 17's managed to do. Those lads have put in a hell of a lot of effort on the training paddock and at the gym to supplement their natural abilities.

I'd like to see more clubs and colts programmes emulating that and achieving the success and loyalty that Uni manage.

I think it is a little unfair to have rockstars parachute in for the last couple of rounds and the finals in SS.

The solution could be to have SS finish in parallel with the Soup, and a second competition involving the Soup players run in parallel with the International windows. Some SS clubs may opt out of this comp and play in another "no-pros" competition possibly involving some of the better Subbies teams.

Hell why not a Uni Blue and Uni Gold team in the same competition. If they aren't going to share their players, then force them to at least spread their talent across two teams.

Uni have had access to swimming pools, gyms and ovals for ever. They were poor in the 80's, nearly getting chucked out of Shute Shield even though they had all the fantastic ovals and facilities etc. Other clubs with poor ovals, limited gyms, no club houses regularly beat them.

The change is that Uni have managed to get clever and efficient and have put together an integrated package to leverage off the facilities that they have. Combine them with club discipline and pride, tough discipline and regimented training programmes, Qualified and competent coaches and so on and you get a total professional package.

Facilities aren't everything. The West tigers Mungo club operates out of a shoebox under the Concord Grandstand and they have won a Mungoland title from there. While the facilities help, it is the total package that is important and what makes the difference.

Has anyone had a look at the sporting facilities that UNSW has? Out towards Eastgardens shops is the JD Phillips fields. Astroturf, floodlights, the works, not much expense spared there. Their Rugby Club did produce Simon Poidevin (a ring in from Goulburn Fizzy Reds Juniors), yet they languish in subbies footy.

There is no reason why UNSW Rugby club couldn't get serious with S&C programmes, Coaching regimes, talented athlete programmes, Alumni mobilisation etc and over time they could emulate the Camperdown Corporation. Jeff Sayle and the Myrtle Greens down in Brook Street probably wouldn't be very happy about it.

The facilities at Macquarie University are absolutely outstanding. They have a subbies Rugby Club. What is stopping them getting serious? Amalgamate or Rebrand Eastwood as Macquarie University.

Try Uni of the Gong and Newcastle. Same story.
A comprehensive University driven programme was put together relatively recently, communicated broadly right across Australia to every stakeholder imaginable at every level of the game and not supported HJ.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Hugh now you have N F-J status you must declare a conflict of interest!

A yappy, cheating runt halfback.

No <censored> way.

I am not of the Camperdown Corporation. Loyalties are elsewhere.

Some kids I have previously coached in Juniors many moons ago are there but none of these would fall in the Schoolboy RockStar category. Believe it or not, they do have some plain old battlers there who just love playing footy.

Full Disclosure: Kids I have coached are at, or have been associated with, Gordon, Manly, Uni, Wicks, Beasts, Norths, Hobbits, and Pirates (no longer). Kids coached have attended CHS, CAS, AAGPS and ISA schools. Some made reps, most didn't. I keep a bit of an eye out for all of them.

A final plug for Uni (here I go again). From what I have seen of their colts and grade players, they do not indulge or tolerate any entitlement Muppeteers like behaviours that we have seen from Bieber and his mates, even though they do have some precociously talented players. Young Tommy Carter is about as bad as they get out of those Stables, and when it all boils down, he is pretty harmless and his heart is in the right place.
 

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
Thoroughly agree.
Here in the Illawarra I've watched the UoW get very involved in the academy of sport then the JGS (and Southern Districts all over the place as well).
Universities (undergrads and post grads) love this stuff as they can practice on people, measure things with the machine that goes beep (that they just bought and are now trying to justify) practice the theory.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Thoroughly agree.
Here in the Illawarra I've watched the UoW get very involved in the academy of sport then the JGS (and Southern Districts all over the place as well).
Universities (undergrads and post grads) love this stuff as they can practice on people, measure things with the machine that goes beep (that they just bought and are now trying to justify) practice the theory.

If UoW had a decent administrator, they would lease the machine that goes ping:

Cue Monty Python - The Meaning of Life:
Hospital Administrator: And what are you doing this morning?
Obstetrician: It's a birth.
Hospital Administrator: Ah. And what sort of thing is that?
Dr. Spenser: Well, that's where we take a new baby out of a lady's tummy.
Hospital Administrator: Wonderful what we can do nowdays.

Hospital Administrator: Ah, I see you have the machine that goes ping. This is my favorite. You see we lease it back from the company we sold it to and that way it comes under the monthly current budget and not the capital account.
[Everyone in the room applauds]
Hospital Administrator: Thank you, thank you.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
You assume that players who play schoolboy rep rugby will automatically become senior rep rugby players - it's looking more like fact than assumption if you can pick the eyes out of the crop and keep em together regardless of what they do or where they play. Yes Uni is able to attract players with scholarships but if you think Uni are where they are simply because all the top schoolboy players end up there then you are wrong. I know the points system is a joke but it's worth noting that in the Colts 1 semi final in which Uni beat Randwick 103-5, Uni's player points were 28 and Randwick's 33. Now if Uni have no juniors as you all claim, then there can't be too many players in Uni colts who have much of a long service discount; to me this suggests that Randwick had more players in their side who had previously played representative rugby. Interesting point and maybe a Randwick person can comment here.

Uni has a fantastic program which turns good young players into excellent players. Nick Phipps was in 3rds Colts when he first came to Uni; Was that because the Australian Schoolboy halfback was ahead of him in 2nd grade colts like this year's situation? correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he didn't play Australian schoolboys. He worked extremely hard, just like all the players at Uni do, and ultimately ended up in the Wallabies. It says something about the club however that rep players actually want to come back and play when the super season is over - every club must be 'special' as all Super rugby players appear to come back and play for their clubs when they can. Phipps, Dennis, Foley, McCalman, all of these guys could have quite easily taken it easy and passed on club rugby if they wanted to - what, pass up on another 1st grade premiership for the sake of half a dozen games?. Foley and Dennis flew back from Perth on Thursday so they could play for their club - they both live in Sydney and were not required for the Wallabies, where else were they to go?.

The fact of the matter is that Uni have more resources - yep, you had an Australian 2012 U 20 halfback in 3rd grade than other clubs which they use to build their development program. Uni has more super players not because all the good schoolboy players go there but because they develop them from colts onwards - nice try but no cigar, it really helps if they have represented their country or state at 18. No other club has a system that produces super rugby players like this - spot on with that. Every single one of the super players in Uni's team on Saturday was a Uni player before they were a super player.- yep true as Berrick and Izzy were unavailable unfortunately.

The Shute Shield has become somewhat uncompetitive but there is actually a simple answer.-simple? The ARU / NSWRU / SRU needs to do their best to ensure that all other clubs in the competition have they same resources that Uni do. How much do you think these resources will cost ie Building 11 Universities for a start Uni have 3 full time coaches and access to professional strength and conditioning staff who train a number of sports at the University. Of course it takes money to do this and the ARU would have to make a commitment that the Shute Shield would be a major part of whatever 3T is established. Unfortunately that doesn't look like happening.

Uni is essentially run like a professional club. If Australian rugby wants to strengthen then they way forward isn't to weaken the strongest club but to inject enough resources into the other clubs so that they can also compete on a level playing field. I bet you would see a lot more super players coming from other clubs regardless of how good they were at school.
 

Hugie

Ted Fahey (11)
As I get older ping is sounding more like beep.

I remember them setting the machine up on the oval one Sunday morning, it was clear they hadn't done this very often. They were having so much fun, they were now going to actually use it measure something. The boys had to run between two points, I don't know to this day what they were measuring but these Uni types were all into it.
The down side is that UoW is just as helpful to League.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
I would have thought that one of the key ways to get a bit of parity back in the SS would be to make sure it coincides with the Super rugby season. I know others have suggested it and it makes total sense to me. After the conclusion of the SS a third tier comp with the top clubs of each Super franchise catchment area could play in an abbreviated national club championship. This is the way the NPC and Currie Cups more or less work now. A good model to emulate I would have thought.
 

the coach

Bob Davidson (42)
You assume that players who play schoolboy rep rugby will automatically become senior rep rugby players regardless of what they do or where they play. Yes Uni is able to attract players with scholarships but if you think Uni are where they are simply because all the top schoolboy players end up there then you are wrong. I know the points system is a joke but it's worth noting that in the Colts 1 semi final in which Uni beat Randwick 103-5, Uni's player points were 28 and Randwick's 33. Now if Uni have no juniors as you all claim, then there can't be too many players in Uni colts who have much of a long service discount; to me this suggests that Randwick had more players in their side who had previously played representative rugby.

Uni has a fantastic program which turns good young players into excellent players. Nick Phipps was in 3rds Colts when he first came to Uni; correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he didn't play Australian schoolboys. He worked extremely hard, just like all the players at Uni do, and ultimately ended up in the Wallabies. It says something about the club however that rep players actually want to come back and play when the super season is over. Phipps, Dennis, Foley, McCalman, all of these guys could have quite easily taken it easy and passed on club rugby if they wanted to. Foley and Dennis flew back from Perth on Thursday so they could play for their club.

The fact of the matter is that Uni have more resources than other clubs which they use to build their development program. Uni has more super players not because all the good schoolboy players go there but because they develop them from colts onwards. No other club has a system that produces super rugby players like this. Every single one of the super players in Uni's team on Saturday was a Uni player before they were a super player.

The Shute Shield has become somewhat uncompetitive but there is actually a simple answer. The ARU / NSWRU / SRU needs to do their best to ensure that all other clubs in the competition have they same resources that Uni do. Uni have 3 full time coaches and access to professional strength and conditioning staff who train a number of sports at the University. Of course it takes money to do this and the ARU would have to make a commitment that the Shute Shield would be a major part of whatever 3T is established. Unfortunately that doesn't look like happening.

BTW, the loyalty discount only starts from when players enter Colts or Grade, there is no loyalty discount as the result of having come through the club's junior programme.

Uni is essentially run like a professional club. If Australian rugby wants to strengthen then they way forward isn't to weaken the strongest club but to inject enough resources into the other clubs so that they can also compete on a level playing field. I bet you would see a lot more super players coming from other clubs regardless of how good they were at school.

I not sure you're interpreting the points totals correctly.
The slightly higher points total for the Wicks was because they had 9 players in their 1st year at the club (ie 2 points each), 1 player who played 50% 1st grade colts last year and 2 schoolboy reps from 2012.
Uni had 4 players with more than 2 years at the club (0 points), 4 players in their 2nd year, 5 players who played 50% 1st grade colts in 2012. So the points difference was due more to loyalty discounts rather than rep honours.

These loyalty discounts serve Uni very well once these players reach 1st and 2nd grade and of course their scholarships (which continue into post graduate studies as long as they keep playing for Uni) encourage them to remain at Uni.

Please note this is offered as an explanation not a criticism.

However, as I've said many times before, if the aim of the points system was to spread the talent across the clubs it's a dismal failure. The only thing it has achieved is to inhibit the movement of experienced 1st graders and rep players from one club to another which of course also assists Uni to retain their players.
 

Late Starter

Allen Oxlade (6)
It is what it is you add nothing constructive to the conversation whatsoever. I'd suggest you understand very little about SUFC, but you're entitled to your opinion regardless of how little information you base it on.
 
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