Sonny Bill

[Zander]

None of those players weigh over 100kgs playing weight. I will guarantee you that.

 

[I like to watch]

That may be so,but anyone still doubting the guy is a slow learner.
He continues to silence his critics in a range of sports,on an annual basis.

 

[USARugger]

Really? DJ Forbes weighs in at 103 kgs, Tim Mikkelson is 103kgs, AMbrose Curtis is 100kgs, Bryce Heem 105kgs.

He'll need to work on his fitness and his work at the break-down but SBW has shown he's not scared of hard work or a willingness to learn.

He's not super-quick by 7's standard but that would go for a lot of players in the NZ team. They've lacked express pace for a while.

I'm assuming he'll be playing center so he'll have to cut down to around 100kg. He doesn't have the breakdown nous (at least that I've ever seen) to be playing in the forwards. ~100kg would still be a 10-15kg drop for him.

It's not even about express pace, just regular 7s pace -- something SBW definitely doesn't have right now. That could change with training but his window will be remarkably small and he'll have played what, nearly 2 years of non-stop rugby leading into it all?

If anyone can knuckle down and make a fist of it, it will be SBW. I just think the odds are a bit stacked against him here.

I could definitely see him being used the same way Ben Lam is for the AB 7s but even then Lam is quite a bit quicker both laterally and horizontally.

 

[Train Without a Station]

But he has no clue at the breakdown.

You make that comment as if every 7s player is a breakdown master. From what I can recall, Matt Lucas, Shannon Walker and a number of other players in the Australian team weren't considered breakdown experts.

People are saying Benji Marshall may be a hit in 7s. I'd claim SBW would do better than him at the breakdown.

 

[I like to watch]

Forget about the breakdown,someone has to put him on his arse before there will be a breakdown.
How many in Gold can accomplish that?
Having 3 kids hanging onto him just brings his offload into play.
As TWAS points out,there are plenty of Oz players that would not be as effective as SBW in this area in any event.

 

[Zander]

You make that comment as if every 7s player is a breakdown master. From what I can recall, Matt Lucas, Shannon Walker and a number of other players in the Australian team weren't considered breakdown experts.

People are saying Benji Marshall may be a hit in 7s. I'd claim SBW would do better than him at the breakdown.

There's a reason Shannon Walker mostly comes off the bench. Of course not everyone is a breakdown specialist, but SBW who is slow and not a full on playmaker would have to be.

 

[I like to watch]

What's all this about the breakdown in 7's?
The breakdown is a much dumb downed version of the 15 man game.
Once you understand the patterns your team plays,being there is not a problem.
Does anything think he is going to be blasted off the ball?
How many if our forwards in 7's are quick enough to play in the centres in real footy?
But SBW will be too slow?

 

[USARugger]

Calling 1-on-1 and 1-on-2 rucking a "dumbed down" version doesn't make any sense as it, by nature, amplifies any errors in technique at the breakdown. No more relying on Fardy and Mowen to move Sekope over the ball, he'd need to do it himself.

I'd be more worried about him giving away penalties if he's repeatedly called on to secure possession.

Junior Rasolea and Tom English are apparently fast enough to play center in "real footy". You're a bit off your rocker with that entire notion. Every Australian starting forward is faster than SBW. They're also all in the 95-100kg range -- SBW would have to drop 10-15kg to get there. He'd have about 6 months to do this.

Doing that while also learning 7s (for presumably the first time) is a huge ask even for a guy like SBW. I don't think the mental aspect of getting to an Olympic level in 7s has been addressed enough here, to be honest. It's not quite as dramatic as Leauge -> Union but it is still a wildly different brand of footy that calls on an entirely different style of play and different instincts than the 15s game. SBW didn't exactly explode into dominance right away in Toulon.

I'm not saying there's no chance, not even close. But to assume he, or any athlete, will succeed at the Olympic level in a code they haven't played before which calls on a different body type than they currently have (dropping 2-3kg a month without sacrificing too much muscle mass will be extremely hard in and of itself) is just a bit too much supposition for me. We're also 2+ years out from any of this, that is a fucking age in sport years.

As a side note..I realize this is an Australian rugby forum but I don't think continually referring to the Australian 7s program as any sort of benchmark for Olympic 7s is appropriate.

 

[Hairy Test Eagle]

Sonny's done the code switch before and when you add boxing to the equation it makes it harder to say he can't do it again. He's obviously a superb athlete and competitor. To be honest though I think that if the New Zealand's 7's program are looking to borrow guys playing elite rugby from the 15 man game they'd be better off looking to blokes like Zac Guildford and the Savea Brothers. Sonny would be in his 30's by the time Rio rolls around so i doubt he's going to get much faster.

 

[I like to watch]

Calling 1-on-1 and 1-on-2 rucking a "dumbed down" version doesn't make any sense as it, by nature, amplifies any errors in technique at the breakdown. No more relying on Fardy and Mowen to move Sekope over the ball, he'd need to do it himself.

I'd be more worried about him giving away penalties if he's repeatedly called on to secure possession.

Junior Rasolea and Tom English are apparently fast enough to play center in "real footy". You're a bit off your rocker with that entire notion. Every Australian starting forward is faster than SBW. They're also all in the 95-100kg range -- SBW would have to drop 10-15kg to get there. He'd have about 6 months to do this.

Doing that while also learning 7s (for presumably the first time) is a huge ask even for a guy like SBW. I don't think the mental aspect of getting to an Olympic level in 7s has been addressed enough here, to be honest. It's not quite as dramatic as Leauge -> Union but it is still a wildly different brand of footy that calls on an entirely different style of play and different instincts than the 15s game. SBW didn't exactly explode into dominance right away in Toulon.

I'm not saying there's no chance, not even close. But to assume he, or any athlete, will succeed at the Olympic level in a code they haven't played before which calls on a different body type than they currently have (dropping 2-3kg a month without sacrificing too much muscle mass will be extremely hard in and of itself) is just a bit too much supposition for me. We're also 2+ years out from any of this, that is a fucking age in sport years.

As a side note..I realize this is an Australian rugby forum but I don't think continually referring to the Australian 7s program as any sort of benchmark for Olympic 7s is appropriate.

It makes no sense to suggest that a world standard Rugby player does not have sufficient breakdown skills to compete with the likes of Shannon Walker who honed his breakdown skills on the bench for the Gold Coast Titans,until he was recruited into 7's.
No one needs to shift Sekope on their own,in 7's.
Why quote Rasolea and English when you refer to current starting forwards?
What about Jenkins,Cusack or Parahi.You are off your rocker if you think any of these guys would gas SBW.
The mental aspect?
How can you possibly think that someone who has repeatedly been exposed to pressure cooker situations,and succeeded,is more of a risk under pressure,than someone who is yet to feel pressure?
That's just illogical.
SBW didn't explode into dominance until they moved him from 13 to 12.
Having said all that,I do agree that his age is against him.But IMO that's all that is against him.

 

[hawktrain]

SBW wouldn't have to play a full 14/20 minute game, so if fitness was an issue over a full game I'd doubt it would be over a shorter period with a stint on the bench. I don't think anyone can cast doubts on his fitness, currently he's right up there physically with anyone in the world, he'll just have to extend that for 3 more years.

The biggest issue IMO is not anything about the game itself but how he fits into the NZ squad and works with Gordon Tietjens. It's a real family type of squad and they're all very close and have been working towards the Olympics for a number of years, SBW will need to prove himself to them. I think he'll be an asset with all on-field elements of the game.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The discussions that SBW would have to lose 10-15kgs and worry about maintaining muscle mass, etc. is fucking laughable too. The guy is in single digit body fat percentage, the only weight he would be losing would be muscle and if the guy is 110kg, quick enough and has good enough endurance whilst being ripped to shreds, he doesn't need to lose the weight. The fact that most guys are lighter than him would be more a symptom of playing so much 7s, than by design.

You're kidding yourself if you think that a guy who within 2 seasons of Super Rugby developed into the best 12 in Super Rugby by virtue of his natural ability and work ethic, does not have the attributes to make it in 7s.

How many of these 7s players are playing because they could be good 15s players but choose 7s? I'd say fuck all and more likely most focus on 7s when they see that their chance to really make it in Super Rugby has passed them by. Why is that? Because the quality of players who make it in Super and Test rugby is much greater and nobody who is good enough to be a regular Super Rugby player sticks around in 7s.

 

[FrankLind]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=11197763

From Gordon Tietjens himself
"And if he could pick anyone to play for him, Tietjens has a clear candidate: "Sonny Bill Williams looks like the ultimate athlete."

End of argument.

 

[Hawko]

How many of these 7s players are playing because they could be good 15s players but choose 7s? I'd say fuck all and more likely most focus on 7s when they see that their chance to really make it in Super Rugby has passed them by. Why is that? Because the quality of players who make it in Super and Test rugby is much greater and nobody who is good enough to be a regular Super Rugby player sticks around in 7s.

I think its a bit more complex than this. There are (at least) two extra considerations:

1. The concentration on speed means that if you want an athlete at their peak then they will be youngish. As the top speed drops off with age so will some sevens players. This is not a universal rule - DJ Forbes is an obvious exception, usually there will be at least one "old" team member.
2. There is a huge list of players who moved from sevens to Super rugby with great success: Gio Aplon, Frank Halai, and many more I can't think of. There is one natural career path that starts with under-20's, moves to sevens and then into an Australian Super squad EPS. Look through the squad lists and you'll find them.

 

[Train Without a Station]

1. There is a huge list of players who moved from sevens to Super rugby with great success: Gio Aplon, Frank Halai, and many more I can't think of. There is one natural career path that starts with under-20's, moves to sevens and then into an Australian Super squad EPS. Look through the squad lists and you'll find them.

Hawko, that's part of my point. How many 7's players not there as a stepping stone? I'm sure if DJ Forbes could have carved out a long career in Super Rugby he wouldn't still be playing 7's.

To say it's beyond the capabilities of one of the most athletic rugby players in the world is overstating 7s, and understating his ability.

 

[Braveheart81]

Hawko, that's part of my point. How many 7's players not there as a stepping stone? I'm sure if DJ Forbes could have carved out a long career in Super Rugby he wouldn't still be playing 7's.

Forbes is only decent in the ITM Cup. I'd guess that he'd probably have had a spot in a Super Rugby squad if he wanted one and focused on the 15 a side game, but I really doubt he would have ever been a regular starting player.