Stormers vs Queensland Reds @ Newlands - 2011R08

[fatprop]

The Reds are clearly playing more field position this season and are being more patient.

 

[Scotty]

Did you read the rest of the conversation?

Here are the top kickers in the S15 at the moment:

I still don't see how you can say that the reason the reds are winning more lineouts is because they are kicking more? There are maybe 1-2 kicks per game they put down in the corner and force the opposition to run it out. I would think the bigger reason they have more lineout wins is because the opposition ensure they kick the ball out rather than keeping it in the field of play, thus negating Reds counter attacks.

 

[Lee Grant]

Thanks for posting that link TOCC. I used to have a bunch of stat sites bookmarked a few years ago before my computer crashed. I hadn't bothered trying to find them again because I was a bit jaundiced about people quoting stats like they were gospels.

I take it that those kicking points are totals, and not percentages, but couldn't find a page where they were added up, or season totals for anything.

Does anybody have a link that has goal kicking percentages for the season to date, as contrasted with total points? I suppose there are some in fantasy type sites but I wouldn't know where to look for them.

 

[PaarlBok]

Thanks for posting that link TOCC. I used to have a bunch of stat sites bookmarked a few years ago before my computer crashed. I hadn't bothered trying to find them again because I was a bit jaundiced about people quoting stats like they were gospels.

I take it that those kicking points are totals, and not percentages, but couldn't find a page where they were added up, or season totals for anything.

Does anybody have a link that has goal kicking percentages for the season to date, as contrasted with total points? I suppose there are some in fantasy type sites but I wouldn't know where to look for them.

Oom Lee this is the best I can give you.

After round 7:
Tries per team

Blues: 3 + 0 + 5 + 1 + 5 + 1 + 4 = 19
Brumbies: 3 + 2 + 4+ 1 + 1 + 3 = 14
Bulls: 2 + 3 + 3 + 1 + 3 + 1 = 13
Chiefs: 3 + 1 + 4 + 3 + 0 + 2 + 1 = 14
Crusaders: 2 + 2 + 6 + 6 + 5 = 21
Cheetahs: 0 + 3 + 0 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 9
Force: 1 + 0 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 7
Highlanders: 1 + 2 + 4 + 0 + 1 + 3 = 11
Hurricanes: 0 + 2 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 6
Lions: 3 + 2 + 4 + 0 + 2 + 2 = 13
Rebels: 0 + 1 + 1 + 4 + 0 + 6 + 3 = 15
Reds: 2 + 0 + 1 + 7 + 6 + 3 = 19
Sharks: 2 + 2 + 5 + 4 + 0 + 4 + 0 = 17
Stormers: 1 + 0 + 0 + 1 + 6 + 1 = 9
Waratahs: 7 + 4 + 3 + 0 + 2 + 2 = 18

Penalties scored per team

Blues: 3 + 4 + 1 + 5 + 2 + 3 + 1 = 19
Brumbies: 3 + 3 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 1 = 14
Bulls: 4 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 3 + 5 = 19
Chiefs: 1 + 2 + 4 + 3 + 5 + 1 + 1 = 17
Crusaders: 4 + 4 + 4 + 2 + 3 = 17
Cheetahs: 3 + 2 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 2 = 21
Force: 5 + 4 + 5 + 5 + 3 + 2 = 24
Highlanders: 3 + 2 + 3 +2 + 2 + 3 = 15
Hurricanes: 3 + 5 + 4 + 1 + 3 = 16
Lions: 1 + 2 + 2 + 4 + 4 + 3 + 5 = 21
Rebels: 0 + 6 + 1 + 2 + 1 + 4 + 3 = 17
Reds: 3 + 2 + 7 + 2 + 1 + 3 = 18
Sharks: 4 + 4 + 2 + 2 + 3 + 2 + 2 = 19
Stormers: 4 + 7 + 6 + 6 + 3 + 3 = 29
Waratahs: 0 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 5 + 3 = 12

 

[Gagger]

I still don't see how you can say that the reason the reds are winning more lineouts is because they are kicking more? There are maybe 1-2 kicks per game they put down in the corner and force the opposition to run it out. I would think the bigger reason they have more lineout wins is because the opposition ensure they kick the ball out rather than keeping it in the field of play, thus negating Reds counter attacks.

In my opinion it's because since losing to the Tahs, Link has been employing far more of a territory based gameplan because he reckons refs have reverted to a far more defense centric breakdown interpretation. He said it on Twitter and in the press.

You play aerial ping pong enough, and play it well, and you'll force the oppo to put it into touch, a lot.

The other usual reason would be the oppo fancies your line-out as a weakness and so goes for touch. Is this the case here?

I can also go with oppos looking to negate the counter as a contributory factor.

But my over-riding feeling is that the long kickoffs and high number of cross/corner kicks from QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia either result directly in a kick to touch by the oppo, or off the resulting phase (i.e. they win their 5m lineout and then have to clear to touch).

And yes, I'm finding it amusing Reds fans won't admit this - it's smart rugby!

 

[Gagger]

those statistics as a whole are also somewhat misleading though Gagger, NSW uses 4 if not 5 kickers(KB (Kurtley Beale), Burgess, Barnes, Turner & Mitchell) where as the Reds largely rely on Quade and Genia. The main reason for Quade kicking so much more then other 5/8's is the fact that he also defends at fullback, meaning he is often returning kicks from back there.

I did a quick look and the Reds have on average kicked 25 times per match compared to the Waratahs 23 times per match..

I think Hawko was right in his reply - different kicks in different situations

Top 20 kick metres

1. Danny Cipriani (Rebels) 2936
2. Morne Steyn (Bulls) 2918
3. Quade Cooper (Reds) 2497
4. Elton Jantjies (Lions) 2238
5. Peter Grant (Stormers) 2023
6. Matt Giteau (Brumbies) 1911
7. Will Genia (Reds) 1873
8. James O'Connor (Force) 1676
9. Patrick Lambie (Sharks) 1642
10. Riaan Viljoen (Cheetahs) 1635
11. Sias Ebersohn (Cheetahs) 1622
12. Stephen Brett (Blues) 1610
13. Cameron Shepherd (Force) 1422
14. Mark Gerrard (Rebels) 1392
15. Kurtley Beale (Waratahs) 1331
16. Fourie du Preez (Bulls) 1277
17. Drew Mitchell (Waratahs) 1226
18. Naas Olivier (Cheetahs) 1157
19. Jimmy Cowan (Highlanders) 1118
20. Stephen Donald (Chiefs) 1017

 

[Lee Grant]

Gagger - where did you those total kicking stats from? They probably have other total figures for individuals too.

PB - Thanks for those details.

 

[PaarlBok]

Gagger - where did you those total kicking stats from? They probably have other total figures for individuals too.

PB - Thanks for those details.

Oom Lee for detail 3 Nations/S15/CC stats, bookmark this one.

http://www.ruggastats.com/

 

[TOCC]

Thanks for posting that link TOCC. I used to have a bunch of stat sites bookmarked a few years ago before my computer crashed. I hadn't bothered trying to find them again because I was a bit jaundiced about people quoting stats like they were gospels.

I take it that those kicking points are totals, and not percentages, but couldn't find a page where they were added up, or season totals for anything.

Does anybody have a link that has goal kicking percentages for the season to date, as contrasted with total points? I suppose there are some in fantasy type sites but I wouldn't know where to look for them.

Sorry, those kicking stats are for kicks in play, i just went through each match took the total number of kicks/team(NSW & QLD) and worked out the average.

Gagger is getting his stats from www.rugbyheaven.com.au, they don't have accumulative figures for teams.

I think Hawko was right in his reply - different kicks in different situations

Top 20 kick metres

When i looked i noticed it wasnt unusual for Lachlan Turner, Luke Burgess or Berrick Barnes to also be close to the top kicker in terms of number of kicks and kicking meters in the game. As opposed to the Reds where QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia did almost 90% of the kicking every single game.

Im not denying that the Reds have been kicking a lot in 2011 and i havent watched all the other teams play each week so i cant comment on that stat, the point im getting at is that you are using misleading statistics to prove your point of kicks per team. QLD are largely reliant on QC (Quade Cooper) and Genia for all there kicking, where as the other teams like NSW use a pretty even spread of up to 5 kickers.

 

[Scotty]

No denying from me regarding kicking gagger just trying to get the lineout kicking link. I think you have summed up the reasons well. I am happy the reds can play the alternate game plan but I suspect it was always one of links aims and didn't just come about due to the tahs game. The changes to his back row did come about due to the reffing of the first few games however.

Also while I wasn't one of those that degraded the tahs for winning ugly (how could anyone who's team was losing) I would like to point out there were just as many Nsw fans having a go at the tahs boring style as any other opposition fans - so don't get in the high horse just yet.

 

[Reddy!]

The Tahs were winning ugly against poor teams. The Reds win the important games in heroic style.

 

[tranquility]

 

[Gagger]

Also while I wasn't one of those that degraded the tahs for winning ugly (how could anyone who's team was losing) I would like to point out there were just as many Nsw fans having a go at the tahs boring style as any other opposition fans - so don't get in the high horse just yet.

Easy tiger - what are you trying to say!

Although to me what the Reds did on Sat wasn't 'ugly'. Was great to watch. Just let's all call it what it is!

 

[Scotty]

What we really want is that all Australian teams has the ability to play that test match style game but also change it up to take the opportunities in attack when they present. Reds and tahs have shown both options this year and I am starting to think we might actually have a shot at the rwc.

 

[Lee Grant]

Gagger is getting his stats from www.rugbyheaven.com.au, they don't have accumulative figures for teams.

Can't see any stats on that link though I am a bit thick on these matters. I have clicked on most things clickable.

PS - PB - thanks for that link but the stats are on individual games. There used to be one that totalled stats like missed tackles etc. for teams throughout the season but it is probably not in existence any more.

 

[James Buchanan]

Can't see any stats on that link though I am a bit thick on these matters. I have clicked on most things clickable.

http://livescores.smh.com.au/rugby/super15/player-stats.html

Top of the main page, on the right at the moment.

 

[Lee Grant]

Thanks - I never thought live scores would give season stats.