Subbies 2023!

[The Ghost of Raelene]

There seems to be a theme happening with a few clubs this year - Play at home great numbers - Play away, forfeitt games. No penalties for clubs who take the easy way out - and no reward for clubs that battle away with players playing 2 grades or with 14 guys just to ensure that they don't let the other team down. Thoughts?

Agree with you mate.

Hard one to think about what should happen. I feel like if you penalise them, they will just walk away from playing entirely which isn't what anybody wants.

I know there are other sports that give fines for forfeits outside of the minimum notice window. Again, it's a barrier to participation.

I don't know if Subbies has any rules around this but if your forfeit more than 2 games should you be banned from finals? It's pretty weak from Manly to not have 1 grade at this point of the season.

 

[Pfitzy]

I know there are other sports that give fines for forfeits outside of the minimum notice window. Again, it's a barrier to participation.

I don't know if Subbies has any rules around this

The Competition Manual has a section dealing with forfeits as below. However, as you state:

I feel like if you penalise them, they will just walk away from playing entirely which isn't what anybody wants.

It isn't anyone's job to go get bashed on a rugby field in Subbies. I love rugby, but I'm pretty sure I could find something to fill my weekends if it suddenly disappeared.

Go back to the Colts discussion on this thread: if Premier Clubs were serious, they'd cap their numbers and tell the Colts to play elsewhere.
End results: those guys would probably leave the game.

I was at an event at our ground yesterday, and the guys from Parra Eels just can't believe how poorly structured rugby is, particularly alignment of Juniors and Seniors. To them, School footy is a nice-to-have. For us, it is becoming a massive hurdle.



9. FORFEITS
9.1 If a Club is forced to forfeit a match, it shall be the lowest grade(s) representing that Club, excluding Colts, which shall be forfeited.

9.2 If a club forfeits a grade higher than a grade already played on that day, then at the Board’s discretion, that club may be deemed to have forfeited all grades, excluding colts, previously played on that day. However, any point differential greater than 28-0 in favour of the non-forfeiting club will be preserved.

9.3 Clubs that advise the Union and opposition Club that they are forfeiting a grade, with the exception of Sutherland & Halligan Cups, by 10am on the Friday preceding the match will lose two competition points and half applicable club championship points from each forfeited grade. Clubs that advise the Union and opposition Club after 10am Friday will lose four competition points and full applicable Club Championship points from each grade forfeited, and may be liable for a $100 fine. The opposition team will still receive a forfeit result.

9.4 Any club which forfeits two or more competition matches in a grade (except Sutherland and Halligan Cups) shall be called to appear before, or give a written submission to the Clubs, Competition and Rules Sub-Committee at a time notified by the NSWSRU. The Sub-Committee may recommend to the Board appropriate action be taken in the form of a fine, suspension, or withdrawal from the competition, or additional loss of competition and/or club championship points.

9.5 A minimum of 11 players is needed to constitute a team for NSWSRU competition matches. Any team unable to field 11 players within ten minutes of the official kick-off time, or at any stage during the match, for whatever reason, including temporary suspensions or send-offs, shall forfeit the match without right of appeal. Teams playing against an opposition with less than 15 players are not required to match opposition team numbers.

 

[Pfitzy]

In terms of what I think should happen:
- Premier Clubs are selected for a national club competition on specific criteria - not all Sydney clubs will meet these criteria
- This entity formed by the club is First XV, Reserve XV, and Colts U20 extended squad
- This is key: SRU (Premier Rugby) takes ownership of only this 3-squad setup (much like the Waratahs are separate to NSWRU)
- This entity works with other Premier Rugby organisations across the country to form the national competition.
- TV rights money, alignment with Super Rugby etc.

That's the national club championship sorted. So what about everyone else?

- The remaining elements of Premier Rugby (whole clubs or part thereof) become the Premier Division in Subbies - local competition only within Sydney
- Maximum 3 Grades + 2 Colts U20
- This line becomes the divide between semipro and amateur rugby, with appropriate rules written up for those "in the grey"
- Subbies clubs become feeders to their local Premier Club for Grade.
- Colts is obviously a different kettle of fish - being U21 vs U20. That needs more thought.

It probably also starts to draw a line that is naturally evolving between those clubs like Div 1 and some Div 2 clubs who have the critical mass, and smaller clubs who do not (and are unlikely to ever gather it).

 

[Heavyd]

The Competition Manual has a section dealing with forfeits as below. However, as you state:



It isn't anyone's job to go get bashed on a rugby field in Subbies. I love rugby, but I'm pretty sure I could find something to fill my weekends if it suddenly disappeared.

Go back to the Colts discussion on this thread: if Premier Clubs were serious, they'd cap their numbers and tell the Colts to play elsewhere.
End results: those guys would probably leave the game.

I was at an event at our ground yesterday, and the guys from Parra Eels just can't believe how poorly structured rugby is, particularly alignment of Juniors and Seniors. To them, School footy is a nice-to-have. For us, it is becoming a massive hurdle.



9. FORFEITS
9.1 If a Club is forced to forfeit a match, it shall be the lowest grade(s) representing that Club, excluding Colts, which shall be forfeited.

9.2 If a club forfeits a grade higher than a grade already played on that day, then at the Board’s discretion, that club may be deemed to have forfeited all grades, excluding colts, previously played on that day. However, any point differential greater than 28-0 in favour of the non-forfeiting club will be preserved.

9.3 Clubs that advise the Union and opposition Club that they are forfeiting a grade, with the exception of Sutherland & Halligan Cups, by 10am on the Friday preceding the match will lose two competition points and half applicable club championship points from each forfeited grade. Clubs that advise the Union and opposition Club after 10am Friday will lose four competition points and full applicable Club Championship points from each grade forfeited, and may be liable for a $100 fine. The opposition team will still receive a forfeit result.

9.4 Any club which forfeits two or more competition matches in a grade (except Sutherland and Halligan Cups) shall be called to appear before, or give a written submission to the Clubs, Competition and Rules Sub-Committee at a time notified by the NSWSRU. The Sub-Committee may recommend to the Board appropriate action be taken in the form of a fine, suspension, or withdrawal from the competition, or additional loss of competition and/or club championship points.

9.5 A minimum of 11 players is needed to constitute a team for NSWSRU competition matches. Any team unable to field 11 players within ten minutes of the official kick-off time, or at any stage during the match, for whatever reason, including temporary suspensions or send-offs, shall forfeit the match without right of appeal. Teams playing against an opposition with less than 15 players are not required to match opposition team numbers.

Those rules were written for another era when clubs were worried about relegation. Now for many it is only about survival, in whatever Div you can muster numbers in. The weekly question now for some clubs is how many players on hand for this weekend? If you dont have the cattle. flogging those available to play 2 games, week in week out each week will drive them away and fast track your club to the history books. Far smarter to do the odd tactical forefeit, with as much notice as possible to give the opposition time to find another game.

 

[Nath]

Was not expecting that sort of margin. Seem to remember they've been closer than that, historically.

Burra look to have a bit more strike power in the backs than they have had in previous years. And they've got some youth coming through too.

When I used to coach against them I remember their backs being solid defensive players.

 

[Pfitzy]

Those rules were written for another era when clubs were worried about relegation. Now for many it is only about survival, in whatever Div you can muster numbers in. The weekly question now for some clubs is how many players on hand for this weekend? If you dont have the cattle. flogging those available to play 2 games, week in week out each week will drive them away and fast track your club to the history books. Far smarter to do the odd tactical forefeit, with as much notice as possible to give the opposition time to find another game.

Agreed. Whereas pre-COVID the stick would come out to punish clubs not meeting their obligations, this has been relaxed given the challenges we now face.

 

[oldmate11]

Div 3 Round 3 Wrap

The Winners

Sydney Harlequins - Two good wins away from home this week. Grinded hard and used the wet conditions to their advantage. With some winnable games coming in the next few rounds, they'll take a lot of confidence and build into the middle of the season.

Sydney Harbour - Both Harbour and their Easts counterparts put in big statements at home this week. Harbour, as many predicted are the team to beat this year. They'll take the rest before a round 5 blockbuster away vs Beecroft.

Old Ignatians - Two free bonus point wins is always handy, colts looked well off the pace against Manly.

The Losers

Manly Savers - I'm not sure how pre-season numbers looked for them but if they're this dire why were they admitted into div 3? They barely have numbers to sustain a div 5 side! Unfortunately they're making this division look like a joke. I wonder if they'll be kicked out if they can't put out a team at home this week.

Knox - Colts lose at home against easts in a game they would've wanted to get up for and both grade sides go down at home, not able to get into the grind of wet weather rugby. Not panic stations but it doesn't bode well for a tough assignment against Beecroft at home next week either.

Old Barker - Colts draw a blank against Gordon and 2nd grade back up their good win with a poor loss to an easts side who got pumped last week. I thought they would've kept things close with Sydney Harbour but to concede 54 points shows they've fallen off quite a bit from last year.

Colts results show this week show the gap between subbies clubs and premiers clubs. They boast huge numbers home and away with the superior training and coaching reflecting on the park. The more premier clubs that join, the more grim subbies colts future looks, in the lower divisions at least.

 

[Pfitzy]

Colts results show this week show the gap between subbies clubs and premiers clubs. They boast huge numbers home and away with the superior training and coaching reflecting on the park. The more premier clubs that join, the more grim subbies colts future looks, in the lower divisions at least.

On the other hand, if those Premier clubs weren't in Subbies, they might have started a Colts 4 competition of their own by now, and Colts sides in Div 3 would have nobody to play.

 

[saturdayisrugbyday]

You have to applaud the recruitment of both clubs especially Blue Mountains - to attract $hute $hield players 70km away as well as a former Waratah is impressive - all for the love of gra$$ root$ footy. Who wouldn’t want to play at crapstone oval?!

yep.

Blue mountains have guys fully retired from shute for years. Let’s criticise those boys and call them money-hungry..

Let’s not actually sit back and applaud guys who got an SOS from their home town club to say we need to help. And instead of rocking up to a well-stocked rich eastern suburbs club, cop an hour plus long commute each way to come out, coach, build some culture and change club fortunes around.

Every single one of the guys mentioned is imparting knowledge onto the local players who get bugger all help from guys like you who sit back and accuse anyone from western Sydney of cheating if they dare to compete results-wise with any eastern suburbs club.

These boys ignored the easy option of continued retirement, and got off their ass to give back to the game in an area that needs it.

Get off their back and maybe put your hands together for some blokes prepared to do more for rugby in one year then you ever would have done to date.

 

[Pfitzy]

Get off their back and maybe put your hands together for some blokes prepared to do more for rugby in one year then you ever would have done to date.

Well said.

A few of the keyboard warriors on here display the exact attitude that got rugby into trouble in the first place. Hopefully clubs like Blueys can help dig it out.

 

[TheBigArvo]

In terms of what I think should happen:
- Premier Clubs are selected for a national club competition on specific criteria - not all Sydney clubs will meet these criteria
- This entity formed by the club is First XV, Reserve XV, and Colts U20 extended squad
- This is key: SRU (Premier Rugby) takes ownership of only this 3-squad setup (much like the Waratahs are separate to NSWRU)
- This entity works with other Premier Rugby organisations across the country to form the national competition.
- TV rights money, alignment with Super Rugby etc.

That's the national club championship sorted. So what about everyone else?

- The remaining elements of Premier Rugby (whole clubs or part thereof) become the Premier Division in Subbies - local competition only within Sydney
- Maximum 3 Grades + 2 Colts U20
- This line becomes the divide between semipro and amateur rugby, with appropriate rules written up for those "in the grey"
- Subbies clubs become feeders to their local Premier Club for Grade.
- Colts is obviously a different kettle of fish - being U21 vs U20. That needs more thought.

It probably also starts to draw a line that is naturally evolving between those clubs like Div 1 and some Div 2 clubs who have the critical mass, and smaller clubs who do not (and are unlikely to ever gather it).

Finally some common sense on these forums. How do we get you in charge of Subbies Pfitzy!?!?!
Spot on with your plan about how to revitalise things, need to throw out the current system and start again. Unfortunately I’m sure everyone on here would blow up (and justly) if it was there club that was first to join up with someone else. People have put there lives into running these clubs and to ask them to fold for the good of the game is a tough one.

 

[Pfitzy]

Not asking anyone to fold, just giving the people what they want:

1) Premier Rugby clubs who hold everyone down get to be the National Club Comp
2) Subbies Clubs get a working relationship with a Premier Club and playing talent can flow both directions
3) Stop the warehousing of talent
4) Players get to play rugby

Really we should take a few lessons from Rugby League on this. Their system isn't perfect, and has its own issues in terms of health of the lower levels, but they don't let schools fuck things up purely for historical reasons.

 

[footy_footy]

I'm fairly sure most current Div 1 clubs (and a fair few Div 2) have Shute Shield experience littered throughout their squads and that's not a problem. Subbies address this in their operations manual - https://rugby.net.au/_uploads/res/132_16980.PDF

Rule 4 outlines the process and Blue Mountains (or any other club with 2022 Shute Shield players or 2022 contracted players) need to seek dispensation from Subbies, which I presume they have done (if they haven't I'd be a little bit concerned but I'll be optimistic). Better players in Subbies makes it a better competition - who doesn't want that? Half of this forum is people having a sook about the decline in Subbies rugby and who's to blame. We have clubs bucking the trend, recruiting well and making the competition more even.

Blue Mountains nearest direct competitor in Div 1 is St Pat's 50km down the M4. Blueys have a huge catchment and alongside Two Blues, Rouse Hill, Blacktown, Merrylands, Hills, Hawkesbury Valley, Raptors etc are doing great things to GROW the game in parts of Sydney where the competition from other sports is much greater than other Division 1 clubs.

 

[Heure]

yep.

Blue mountains have guys fully retired from shute for years. Let’s criticise those boys and call them money-hungry..

Let’s not actually sit back and applaud guys who got an SOS from their home town club to say we need to help. And instead of rocking up to a well-stocked rich eastern suburbs club, cop an hour plus long commute each way to come out, coach, build some culture and change club fortunes around.

Every single one of the guys mentioned is imparting knowledge onto the local players who get bugger all help from guys like you who sit back and accuse anyone from western Sydney of cheating if they dare to compete results-wise with any eastern suburbs club.

These boys ignored the easy option of continued retirement, and got off their ass to give back to the game in an area that needs it.

Get off their back and maybe put your hands together for some blokes prepared to do more for rugby in one year then you ever would have done to date.

Save your sob story.

are you saying half of Suva have emigrated to Drummoyne to help develop subbies rugby?

get a grip

 

[DaSchmooze]

Save your sob story.

are you saying half of Suva have emigrated to Drummoyne to help develop subbies rugby?

get a grip

No he's not but what would be the issue with that if they did? Everyone lamented the decline in standard in Drummoyne last year so they've taken steps to remedy it.

 

[Eastcoast]

@Pfitzy Any news from the Subbies board as to why we have 5 byes in Div 1 this week?

 

[Pfitzy]

@Pfitzy Any news from the Subbies board as to why we have 5 byes in Div 1 this week?

Firstly, Board only meets once a month, and doesn't handle the competition administration at the day-to-day level.

That said, having 4 more Bye fixtures than expected looks a bit weird, I'll admit. My first instinct is that it is a system glitch.

EDIT ah that's right. As U was reminded below: the draw needs more byes to fit into the structure as it needs to finish before rwc

 

[Tah Man]

Firstly, Board only meets once a month, and doesn't handle the competition administration at the day-to-day level.

That said, having 4 more Bye fixtures than expected looks a bit weird, I'll admit. My first instinct is that it is a system glitch.

It's a really frustrating time for a bye, just when teams are building some momentum into the season

 

[Cuz]

Firstly, Board only meets once a month, and doesn't handle the competition administration at the day-to-day level.

That said, having 4 more Bye fixtures than expected looks a bit weird, I'll admit. My first instinct is that it is a system glitch.

Most likely to do with each team needing to have 2 byes throughout the season, having 9 teams & only 14 rounds & not wanting to have lots of byes at the end of the season & giving people something to complain about leading into finals....

 

[Champagne Rugby]

Div 3
1st grade
Savers v Quinns: Quinns should win, they should be able to beat a team that couldn't field 15 1st grade players the previous week, but Manly are back at home and the quins aren't the strongest 1st grade team, Quinns by 12
Knox v Beecroft: Beecroft look promising this year especially in attack have scored at least 5 tries each week, knox meanwhile have struggled (the exception against manly) to score points. I think the slick beecroft backs will be too much for Knox, Beecroft by 19
Old Iggies v Barker: Iggies haven't played for a month so hard to tell but they looked good in the first game of the season and they will be ready to go. Barker beat this team last year and will hope to do the same, but I think the tables will be turned on last year as I think Barker have regressed and Iggies have recruited well with optimism high playing in Div 3.
2nd Grade
Savers v Quinns: If manly can put a team together I would expect them to be well beaten by a strong div 2 Quinn's.
Knox v Beecroft: Both teams are on 1 win although Knox has played 3 games and Beecroft 1. Beecroft's loss was close and their win was over a team that beat Knox, am tipping Beecroft by 10.
Iggies v Barker: iggies could get another cleansweep in grade this week, this will be a good game with two teams that will likely play very similar styles. I am predicting iggies by 7 who will be fresh and free of injuries which may start to affect teams at this point.
Colts
Manly v Easts: Two undefeated teams coming off good wins and should be a good match, expect easts to just beat manly.
Knox v Beecroft: Another tough game, the best subbies clubs in colts, too hard to split, there's been 2 draws not in colts, so going to cop out and say this one will be a draw.
Iggies v Barker: Both teams are 0/2. Barker have averaged loses of 30 compared to Iggies average loss of 17. Neither is particularly flattering. Tipping iggies as coming off two big losses and playing away may be a bridge to far forBarker.