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Subbies 2023!

Heure

Frank Nicholson (4)
Looks like it was Mosman’s turn to fill up the slop bucket for the subbies board. I’m sure Drummoyne gave them the manual.

looks like it’s just not RA that’s the only gutless rugby administration in the country.

will be patiently waiting for fitzys dribble to justify another decision that clearly involved those around the trough.

sad day for subbies and a lot of empathy to all the players and volunteers at the proud st pats club.

#keepKentwellintheNorthandEast
 

TheBigArvo

Sydney Middleton (9)
Under what criteria where they dropped? How can Subbies clubs look to meet this criteria if they aren’t aware of it? They finished 6th in club champs (5th in 2022) had 3 teams below them. Ran 2 Colts sides, one who was undefeated until the finals. Is Waverley also being demoted because they couldn’t run a colts team all year?

It’s another example of Subbies making a decision for Div 1 without looking at the whole picture. Yes you get an 8 team Div 1 & probably 2 but your left with 4-5 teams in Div 3, what happens to that comp?

At what point do Subbies do away with the rush to the 8 team format? Yes it’s the best format with a 14 round comp but if it’s at the expense of the long term future of a club? This game loves shooting itself in the foot.
 

DaSchmooze

Johnnie Wallace (23)
I am typically the first to defend the Subbies board and the work/decisions that they make. It's not an easy task and mostly, you're on a hiding to nothing. But for the life of me.... I cant work out how the heck did they come to this decision?

If placement in the Top 8 is not the criteria for promotion or relegation then what is?
Why werent all clubs informed of this subjective assessment prior to the season starting?
What the hell is subjective assessment being used to determine this outcome in the first place?

This does my head in.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I'll start out by saying I'm not discussing any Board decision in specifics, but I'll address some points, which I've addressed in part of full before.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
At what point do Subbies do away with the rush to the 8 team format?

Anyone who has followed this thread and and knows the landscape will understand there are very good reasons for trying to get the 8x8x8 format as the long-term standard: it provides the most equitable way forward for club championships, giving everyone a Home and Away against every opponent.

Due to the 9-team competition in First Division this year, that wasn't possible. Only a specific set of rounds counted for CC, and created a situation where some clubs would feel aggrieved in specific situations e.g.
1) won a game against a tough opponent that didn't contribute for CC
2) had to go on the road to earn CC points later in the year against a tough opponent, with no opportunity to return the favour.

If Divisions are left at more than 8, the competition continues to lack this Home v Away balance for the Club Championship, and the situation persists and/or worsens.

The decision to leave it at 9 clubs for 2023 was on the Board as well, it must be noted.

One solution put forward here is to put First Division to 10 clubs. Again: you'd need 18 rounds to keep it equitable, and logistically that is extremely challenging (eg ground access), but having a 21-round season has probably passed us by a few years back. Getting players to commit to that would be difficult at this point.
 

Prodigy

Alex Ross (28)
Anyone who has followed this thread and and knows the landscape will understand there are very good reasons for trying to get the 8x8x8 format as the long-term standard: it provides the most equitable way forward for club championships, giving everyone a Home and Away against every opponent.

Due to the 9-team competition in First Division this year, that wasn't possible. Only a specific set of rounds counted for CC, and created a situation where some clubs would feel aggrieved in specific situations e.g.
1) won a game against a tough opponent that didn't contribute for CC
2) had to go on the road to earn CC points later in the year against a tough opponent, with no opportunity to return the favour.

If Divisions are left at more than 8, the competition continues to lack this Home v Away balance for the Club Championship, and the situation persists and/or worsens.

The decision to leave it at 9 clubs for 2023 was on the Board as well, it must be noted.

One solution put forward here is to put First Division to 10 clubs. Again: you'd need 18 rounds to keep it equitable, and logistically that is extremely challenging (eg ground access), but having a 21-round season has probably passed us by a few years back. Getting players to commit to that would be difficult at this point.
I think that Subbies could have look at a 10 club premier division in 2024. Start division 1 the same weekend as everyone else and you have a two round overhang at the end.

to relegate a club that finished sixth, and did not forfeit a game, while ignoring the fact that two other clubs did, and regularly, is questionable.

I just hope Subbies are ready to publish this ‘subjective’ criteria so we all know what we could be in for.

I think you’ll have some division 2 clubs considering their place there with this news, especially if my sources on the second club are correct.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
t’s another example of Subbies making a decision for Div 1 without looking at the whole picture. Yes you get an 8 team Div 1 & probably 2 but your left with 4-5 teams in Div 3, what happens to that comp?

We're looking at the whole picture. As you might appreciate, there are a lot of moving parts, and the more you can lock in, the better.

We're very aware that Division 3 is going to be a challenge, based on how it finished year (Savers, Iggies in particular), and what happens above it. Based on the form guide, you're probably looking at 18-20 Clubs assured of fielding Colts in the top 3 Divs.

Good clubs from Div 4 like Irish and Merrylands didn't have Colts in 2023. How do we take that into account when trying to get 7-8 clubs into Div 3. All questions we're trying to answer, with regular communication to clubs.

Looking back at the history very quickly, so we all remember how we got here:

2020
Season starts late due to COVID. Whatever we could manage was a plus

2021
Season halted due to COVID. Drag.

2022 Pre-season
* 8 Clubs in Division 1 (and yes, Knox, but let's move past that).
* Only 6 clubs looking likely to meet Division 2 requirements at one point.
* Third Div was looking equally shaky, having lost HAC and Raptors. Hawkesbury Valley didn't field Colts in 2021 either.

Having a 6-club Division means 15 rounds, playing each other 3 times - also creates a huge risk that one club falls down, and the division implodes.

Of the six Div 2 prospects, Hunters and Pats are the leading lights.
Faced with the prospect of playing those two clubs 3 times each, some clubs were weighing up their options to move down to Div 3. HH and Pats had been dominant in 2021, so I see their point. Going to Hudson or Boronia a second time late in the season - for a pounding - is a recipe for mass forfeits.

The decision was taken to promote St Pats and Hunters to Div 1, creating the 10-club monster, and rejigging the CC calculations to suit.

Div 2 and 3 were combined, and ended up at 11 clubs, which was once more a pain for CC points.

Div 4 ended up 12 clubs - again not the best outcome for CC. Div 5 at 10 clubs.


2023 in summary
* 9 clubs in Div 1 = screwy CC points
* 7 clubs in Div 2 = better in terms of full home and away, but bye rounds suck, particularly backed onto long weekend or wet weather. Lindfield dominate. Epping are back thanks to Colts JV with HH.
* 7 clubs in Div 3 = Compromises made to get Sydney Harbour up. Blacktown have dropped well out. Savers implode. Iggies decline. Barker not what they were.
* 10 clubs in Div 4 = screwy CC points less of an issue here, but other issues: Saints/Cove JV is a little up and down. Wakehurst/Brothers too. Rockdale start with 2 teams and do well to make finals, with about 23 blokes left. A few forfeits (us included) disrupt proceedings. A clear top 4 in each Grade and then the rest.
* 11 clubs in Div 5 - no Maccabiah Games or Bingham cup so Convicts and Maccabi are in. A few forfeits again, and one round with a lot of travel for some clubs. Hey, that's Subbies, but it still isn't great if you can't also host.

For the future:
2024
8 clubs in top 2 divisions = equitable CC points calculations.
Pieces still on the chessboard for the rest at this point, but a Div 3 structure the priority
Div 4+ doesn't usually start to resolve itself until February as clubs get their numbers together.

2025
All is harmony and light in the world. Peace reigns. GAGR's Subbies thread for the season is a blissful group, sitting around a campfire.

lol.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
I think that Subbies could have look at a 10 club premier division in 2024. Start division 1 the same weekend as everyone else and you have a two round overhang at the end.

For 18 rounds to finish 2 weeks after, I assume you're getting rid of the wet weather weeks?
 

Prodigy

Alex Ross (28)
Here's an idea. I think it might work. Each division is 10 clubs divided into two pools. Pools decided by standing on Cowboy Cup ladder
DIVISION 1 (4 grades & Colts)

POOL A: Lindfield, Drummoyne, Blue Mountains, Mosman, Forest
POOL B: Colleagues, Hunters Hill, Waverley, St Pats, Petersham/UNSW
DIVISION 2 (3 grades & colts)
POOL A: UNSW, Hills, Knox, Barker, Briars
POOL B: Beecroft, Newport, Harlequins, Epping, Hawkesbury Valley
DIVISION 3 (2/3 grades)
POOL A: Merrylands, Redfield, Sydney Harbour, Northern Saints, Old Ignatians
POOL B: Sydney Irish, Rockdale, Wakehurst/Brothers, Renegades, Manly Savers?

Home & Away series within your pool for Rounds 1-8
Play everyone in the opposite pool Round 13.
Club Championship is awarded for all thirteen rounds.

Top 6 teams in each grade into the finals.
Week 1
QF1: 2nd Pool A vs 3rd Pool B
QF2: 2nd Pool B vs 3rd Pool A
Week 2
SF1: 1st Pool A vs Winner QF2
SF2: 1st Pool B vs Winner QF1
Week 3
GF: Winner SF1 vs Winner SF2

Division 4 would then be a 13/14 club competition, where you play everyone once and then the same finals series applies.
This is the idea I put forward in this group previously.
To factor in ‘fairness’ for club championship points, I’ll devise a plan. Club championship points accumulate as normal through rounds 1-8, accounting for the whole pool home and away series. At that point, each club’s cc points are cut in half, basically giving them one round of points against each other club. Then CC points are accumulated as normal in round 9-13.
This means every club has a sense of equity in the CC points.
The length of the season doesn’t change. The wet weather and bye rounds still exist and clubs play where they should.
 

DaSchmooze

Johnnie Wallace (23)
@Pfitzy are you able to let everyone know what the criteria for promotion/relegation is other than the ability to field the required number of teams per that division and placing on the Club Championship ladder?
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
It's not an easy task and mostly, you're on a hiding to nothing.

Yep, but I have learned to avoid taking it personally ;)

I think of the Board like refereeing - before picking up the whistle I was just as ready as anyone in the cheap seats to have a crack. Now I'm a little (!!!) more measured :)

Likewise, having been part of the Board discussions with regard to Divisional structure - particularly through COVID - my thinking is different.

It is easy to sling mud about "Subbies being out of touch" when you're outside the room. When I finally step away from the Board ("one less rugby thing, then?" says my wife :) ), I won't be lining up to have a crack at whoever is there, because I've been there, seen it, and know it isn't always clean-cut.

Maybe I'm just mellowing in my old age :p

Reiterating what I've said previously: as a group, the Board tries at all times to make decisions in the best interests of the wider competition. We have an eye on the next season of course, but must balance that with the longer term. There are differing points of view often, and decisions are not taken lightly.
 

Heure

Frank Nicholson (4)
I just hope Subbies are ready to publish this ‘subjective’ criteria so we all know what we could be in for.


good luck with that. The communication and treatment to St Pats has been shameful.
 

TheBigArvo

Sydney Middleton (9)
We're looking at the whole picture. As you might appreciate, there are a lot of moving parts, and the more you can lock in, the better.

We're very aware that Division 3 is going to be a challenge, based on how it finished year (Savers, Iggies in particular), and what happens above it. Based on the form guide, you're probably looking at 18-20 Clubs assured of fielding Colts in the top 3 Divs.

Good clubs from Div 4 like Irish and Merrylands didn't have Colts in 2023. How do we take that into account when trying to get 7-8 clubs into Div 3. All questions we're trying to answer, with regular communication to clubs.

Looking back at the history very quickly, so we all remember how we got here:

2020
Season starts late due to COVID. Whatever we could manage was a plus

2021
Season halted due to COVID. Drag.

2022 Pre-season
* 8 Clubs in Division 1 (and yes, Knox, but let's move past that).
* Only 6 clubs looking likely to meet Division 2 requirements at one point.
* Third Div was looking equally shaky, having lost HAC and Raptors. Hawkesbury Valley didn't field Colts in 2021 either.

Having a 6-club Division means 15 rounds, playing each other 3 times - also creates a huge risk that one club falls down, and the division implodes.

Of the six Div 2 prospects, Hunters and Pats are the leading lights.
Faced with the prospect of playing those two clubs 3 times each, some clubs were weighing up their options to move down to Div 3. HH and Pats had been dominant in 2021, so I see their point. Going to Hudson or Boronia a second time late in the season - for a pounding - is a recipe for mass forfeits.

The decision was taken to promote St Pats and Hunters to Div 1, creating the 10-club monster, and rejigging the CC calculations to suit.

Div 2 and 3 were combined, and ended up at 11 clubs, which was once more a pain for CC points.

Div 4 ended up 12 clubs - again not the best outcome for CC. Div 5 at 10 clubs.


2023 in summary
* 9 clubs in Div 1 = screwy CC points
* 7 clubs in Div 2 = better in terms of full home and away, but bye rounds suck, particularly backed onto long weekend or wet weather. Lindfield dominate. Epping are back thanks to Colts JV with HH.
* 7 clubs in Div 3 = Compromises made to get Sydney Harbour up. Blacktown have dropped well out. Savers implode. Iggies decline. Barker not what they were.
* 10 clubs in Div 4 = screwy CC points less of an issue here, but other issues: Saints/Cove JV is a little up and down. Wakehurst/Brothers too. Rockdale start with 2 teams and do well to make finals, with about 23 blokes left. A few forfeits (us included) disrupt proceedings. A clear top 4 in each Grade and then the rest.
* 11 clubs in Div 5 - no Maccabiah Games or Bingham cup so Convicts and Maccabi are in. A few forfeits again, and one round with a lot of travel for some clubs. Hey, that's Subbies, but it still isn't great if you can't also host.

For the future:
2024
8 clubs in top 2 divisions = equitable CC points calculations.
Pieces still on the chessboard for the rest at this point, but a Div 3 structure the priority
Div 4+ doesn't usually start to resolve itself until February as clubs get their numbers together.

2025
All is harmony and light in the world. Peace reigns. GAGR's Subbies thread for the season is a blissful group, sitting around a campfire.

lol.
Firstly don’t get me wrong I fully agree that an 8 team comp is the best structure to fit the 14 rounds. However as you say yourself there are only 18-20 clubs that fit the top 3 Divisions. So the question is how do you fit those sides into a structure that suits. Currently you’ve got a 4 team Div 3.

In 2022 we dropped Epping to Div 4 because they didn’t have Colts and the board said Colts were the future. Fair enough criteria.

In 2023 even though we wanted to get back to 8 team divisions we left Drummoyne in Div 1 in a 9 team comp after a basket case of a year. Good on them for rebounding but it left holes in Div 2/3.

In 2024 we have told St Pats who finished mid table and had 2 colts side even though they meet the criteria for Div 1 they’re being relegated whilst other clubs regularly forfeited colts.

Every year it’s a different criteria/plan that clubs aren’t aware of until there being dropped. Clubs can never meet the criteria cause the goal posts are constantly changing for some clubs.
 
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