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Super "B" Rugby; Australia's likely 3rd Tier

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en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
Like it or loath it, it would appear out "3rd tier" will take the form of a much expanded EPS program taking our squads to 45-50 and B games taking place prior to Aussie derbies, labelled "Super B".

Not ideal, but it's affordable, realistic, and better than what we've got.

ARU boss Bill Pulver hoping 'Super B' competition will lead to financial windfall for governing body
By Iain Payten, The Daily Telegraph, May 17, 2013 8:28AM

ARU boss Bill Pulver says targeting success at Super Rugby level is the key to restoring the code's ailing financial health and, after getting a green light from the IRB, is aiming to have a radical "Super B" pathway competition running in 2014.
Pulver recently returned from his first IRB meeting in Dublin, where he pitched plans for a modified 50 minute-a-game "Super B" format to rugby's top lawmakers.

Under the ARU proposal, the third-tier competition would be fought out between state-based teams of rising junior and club players, and be staged as curtain raisers to Super Rugby clashes.
But in major departures from tradition, the games would only run for 25 minutes per half and penalty goals would be banned to encourage more on-field action.

Strict yellow card usage would serve as a deterrent to anarchy, or possibly free up space on the field.
While many doubted Pulver could convince IRB blazers to agree, the ARU boss said he been informed there was nothing stopping him making the changes.

"The rules of rugby say a rugby match must have two halves, and each half cannot be greater than 40 minutes," Pulver said.

"So we are quite free to play 25 minutes halves. I also talked to them about seeking approval for no penalty goals.

"The truth is I actually don't have to do that. We can just get a coaches' agreement that we're not going to kick penalty goals."

Pulver said while he'd intended to seek approval for a shorter yellow card sanction, he'd also swung back to realising the existing 10 minutes was appropriately punitive.

"So there are three variations I can do there without changing the rules of the game," Pulver said.

"We just need a coaches agreement. I want a game that doesn't have penalty goals, and is focussed on smart, creative, running rugby."

Cutting down game-time would allow Super B matches would be played as near to Super Rugby matches as possible for fan engagement, and provide more rugby content for TV.

"It's a very aggressive timetable, but I would love to get this up for next year," Pulver said.
"There's a long way to go, a lot of financial work to do and a lot of development work to do, but I think it is a very exciting concept."

Exactly who plays in the teams is to be determined after a root and branch review of Australian rugby junior, club and academy pathways by new ARU development boss Ben Whitaker.

Pulver has identified investment in achieving Super Rugby success at the central driver of sorely needed improvement in the financial health of Australian rugby. The ARU has reported a total loss of over $19 million in the last two years.

"A core part of our strategy here is how we accelerate the development of elite talent," Pulver said.
"One of the key things that drives our revenue growth is our performances at the elite levels of the game.
"Historically the ARU have put a lot of money directly into the Wallabies to try and enhance their performances. My sense is we need a lot of effort into developing players capable of winning at a Super Rugby level, because if you do that then the Wallabies' selectors job is a whole lot easier and you can win at that level.

"(Super B) is designed to do a number of things but objective No.1 is to help Super Rugby sides be more successful. If they're more successful, it will drive their revenue, and it will help the Wallabies be more successful and drive revenue."

Broader on-field success and being "seen as winners in the marketplace" will also help rugby address their struggles in a contracted sports sponsorship market, said Pulver.

Article from: http://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/s...ody/story-e6frf4qu-1226644971471#.UZWD3yvOkVd
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
This, to me, is HUGELY advantageous to the ACT, Vic, and WA's local talent.

Here's the reality, none of those franchises can afford to uprooted 15 extra players to fill $15k a year positions where they have almost zero chance of Super Rugby game time. Thus locals will get backed and will possibly eventually crack the big time.

This is not personal opinion, it's a predicted reality from those in influential postions within those franchises.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
It's also massively beneficial to people like AJ Gilbert who are in that 23-28 bracket and have consistently been on the fringes of professionalism.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
I really think this is stupid, changing the rules ruins the dynamics of rugby. Is this going to be good for prop development? If there's no penalties, shorter sin bins and the time is shorter that definitely means a lower emphasis on having a good scrum.

That's likely, but depends on where the coaches want to take it.

It COULD also go the other way and there could be more scrums and more thus set moves, the scrum can be a good platform for tries after all. Plus, with more yellow cards you could see a dominant scrum being used to milk the cards out of the ref.

I think a better rule would be, no set penalty kicks. You have 30 seconds to drop kick if you wish. That should get rid of cynical offenses in the 22.

Works for 7s, and I'd call that a running rugby game (which is obviously what BP is aiming at).
 

p.Tah

John Thornett (49)
Are they changing the rules? They're just shortening the game and encouraging the players not to kick penalty goals. That in turn will lead to a greater emphasis on line outs.

I'll wait to see if scrum emphasis will diminish, but I'd still think it has an important role to play.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I think this is the most sensible way to do 3rd teir, hopefully the kiwis get involved.

I dont reckon the rules with be much different when it comes down to it. The no penalty kicks has more to do with not wasting any of the 25 mins with setting up kicks.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I doubt this will have any impact on scrums. The Super Rugby sides will care more about using this to develop players than winning. They'll want props who have the potential to play for their Super Rugby side, not specifically excell in a modified 50 minute game.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think a better rule would be, no set penalty kicks. You have 30 seconds to drop kick if you wish. That should get rid of cynical offenses in the 22.
Given the generally reduced accuracy of a drop kick i would have though it would encourage such offences as would placing a more strict time limit on the kick.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I think long term, that 8 team club rugby comp in sydney will become the main show in town during the test season after super rugby, U20's WC and this comp are finished.

That way there will be a full season of 3rd teir rugby for the fringe super rugby guys.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
I think this is the most sensible way to do 3rd teir, hopefully the kiwis get involved.

I dont reckon the rules with be much different when it comes down to it. The no penalty kicks has more to do with not wasting any of the 25 mins with setting up kicks.
Wouldnt involving the kiwis blow the costs out of the water?
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
Given the generally reduced accuracy of a drop kick i would have though it would encourage such offences as would placing a more strict time limit on the kick.

True, perhaps we could go gridiron style and when a team elects to drop goal they automatically get it from the middle of the field?

It sounds stupid, but I'm all for speeding up the game but I'm NOT for lightening the punishment for penalties.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
True, perhaps we could go gridiron style and when a team elects to drop goal they automatically get it from the middle of the field?

It sounds stupid, but I'm all for speeding up the game but I'm NOT for lightening the punishment for penalties.
I agree with the sentiment: perhaps if they just enforced the time limit on taking the kick?
Some of these blokes in s15 are taking a full 3 minutes, I reckon.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
I think long term, that 8 team club rugby comp in sydney will become the main show in town during the test season after super rugby, U20's WC and this comp are finished.

That way there will be a full season of 3rd teir rugby for the fringe super rugby guys.

I hope not for plenty of reasons.

Firstly, there's 11 competitive teams in the SS right now. Sure some are better then others but 11 of the teams are putting up a fight and team 12 hopefully will soon.

Secondly, if there's 45 Super rugby players in 5 teams that's 225 players. Minus 35 for Wallaby duty and let's say that 50% are injured, that's 95 players. 95 players across 8 teams is just under 12 players per team. Do you think there's real value to be found in having a Sydney based 3rd tier system with only 3 non-professional players per club getting a crack to play late season games and finals? Where are the next level of players to be found?

We don't want our 3rd tier to become Sydney centric, it's a national game and picking up 4 or 5 games at the end of the SS season won't make player number 45 on the Force's roster any better and it might rob other talent of a chance to strut their stuff.

Having 45 players at the Rebels, will inject 20 players a week into a soon to be 8 team local competition. Imagine just how much better than will make locals?

Grow the game, don't compact it. These squad sizes and B games will make Super Rugby more grass-routes linked, it'd be terrible if we used it as a chance to make the league more Sydney centric.
 

en_force_er

Geoff Shaw (53)
I agree with the sentiment: perhaps if they just enforced the time limit on taking the kick?
Some of these blokes in s15 are taking a full 3 minutes, I reckon.

Perhaps they should add a rule called taking the piss. If the ref thinks you're taking the piss with your kick, you lose the chance.

Also, no water or medicos can run on during the kick unless theirs a legitimate injury as rulled (as best as possible) by a match doctor.
 

Inside Shoulder

Nathan Sharpe (72)
Yeah probably, but it would add 4-5 more games a year and be a good gauge for how our development is going. Maybe in the future when the ARU finances are in better shape.
dont misunderstand me: i think its a great idea. i was doing the sums and it would only involve 2 or 3 games each season over the ditch and the airfares to NZ are often less than to Brisvegas and always less than to Perth, for instance.
 

Bowside

Peter Johnson (47)
I hope not for plenty of reasons.

Firstly, there's 11 competitive teams in the SS right now. Sure some are better then others but 11 of the teams are putting up a fight and team 12 hopefully will soon.

Secondly, if there's 45 Super rugby players in 5 teams that's 225 players. Minus 35 for Wallaby duty and let's say that 50% are injured, that's 95 players. 95 players across 8 teams is just under 12 players per team. Do you think there's real value to be found in having a Sydney based 3rd tier system with only 3 non-professional players per club getting a crack to play late season games and finals? Where are the next level of players to be found?

We don't want our 3rd tier to become Sydney centric, it's a national game and picking up 4 or 5 games at the end of the SS season won't make player number 45 on the Force's roster any better and it might rob other talent of a chance to strut their stuff.

Having 45 players at the Rebels, will inject 20 players a week into a soon to be 8 team local competition. Imagine just how much better than will make locals?

Grow the game, don't compact it. These squad sizes and B games will make Super Rugby more grass-routes linked, it'd be terrible if we used it as a chance to make the league more Sydney centric.

The super rugby b comp would be the 3rd teir, it would be where the development is done.

The sydney rugby "IPL" would purely be about making money and putting on a show for TV. I expect if it ever got off the ground we will see more blokes like chabal getting a run. Who knows, maybe they will let the top club from Melbourne, Canberra and Perth compete to give it a bit more national flavour?
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
Just make it so penalties must be dropped kicked. 30 mins a half would be better but it seems ok and I don't see it affecting facets of the game such as the scrum a great deal.

Got to the Reds v Sharks game early and saw some of TSS vs TGS and thought it was great so having a curtain raiser like this would appeal even more.
 
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