Sydney First Grade teams

[red son]

Red Son, in your post on Shute Shield clubs you listed West Harbour as a new club joining the competition in 1995. If memory serves me correctly Western Suburbs changed their name to West Harbour Pirates circa 1992-3.

Hi Aussie D
Thanks for showing an interest. Always love to get comments, corrections or criticisms. Good to get it right.
It was for season 1995 that Western Suburbs changed their name to West Harbour Pirates. The Rugby Union had kicked out Drummoyne and added Canberra, Newcastle and Penrith and with this expansion going on Wests took the opportunity to start with a new name and colours (red was added to the black).
If you can get a copy of "Against All Odds - A Pictorial History of Wests Rugby 1900-2011" by Harry Kimble, the story of the change is also there. It was 1995. Book is highly recommended.

 

[red son]

Hi Aussie D
Thanks for showing an interest. Always love to get comments, corrections or criticisms. Good to get it right.
It was for season 1995 that Western Suburbs changed their name to West Harbour Pirates. The Rugby Union had kicked out Drummoyne and added Canberra, Newcastle and Penrith and with this expansion going on Wests took the opportunity to start with a new name and colours (red was added to the black & white).
If you can get a copy of "Against All Odds - A Pictorial History of Wests Rugby 1900-2011" by Harry Kimble, the story of the change is also there. It was 1995. Book is highly recommended.

In my listings the clubs in bold are clubs either entering the comp for the first time or changing their names. So when you see Northern Suburbs or Drummoyne for the first time they are existing clubs but have changed their name.

 

[kiap]

^^^^^Fantasatic research Red Son. A lot of work would have gone into that.

You deserve a G&GR 'Mention in Dispatches' at the very least.

I second the motion. Outstanding work!

 

[kiap]

A union (the Southern Rugby Football Union) to control "football" in the colony of NSW was formed in 1874. Ten clubs were present on 24 June 1874 at the inaugural meeting of the Southern Rugby Football Union (latter renamed the “New South Wales Rugby Football Union” in 1892).

Red Son, glad to have you on board!

I'd like to ask you about a bone of contention from the foundation. There are claims published all over the place, even on the ARU's own website a few years back, that the original SRFU was administered from England:

By 1874 there were enough clubs to form a Sydney Metropolitan competition and in that year the Southern Rugby Union was established, initially being administered from Twickenham in England. Administration was handed over to New South Wales in 1881 and in 1892 the Southern Rugby Union of New South Wales and the Northern Rugby Union of Queensland (formed in 1883) became New South Wales and Queensland Rugby Unions respectively.​

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In an age of ship travel, I find this a bit hard to believe. I know that John Mulford some years ago said there was no evidence for this. And if there is no evidence then it's not really a claim that should be made. But it seems so specific with a handover year.

Any thoughts?

 

[red son]

Red Son, glad to have you on board!

I'd like to ask you about a bone of contention from the foundation. There are claims published all over the place, even on the ARU's own website a few years back, that the original SRFU was administered from England:

By 1874 there were enough clubs to form a Sydney Metropolitan competition and in that year the Southern Rugby Union was established, initially being administered from Twickenham in England. Administration was handed over to New South Wales in 1881 and in 1892 the Southern Rugby Union of New South Wales and the Northern Rugby Union of Queensland (formed in 1883) became New South Wales and Queensland Rugby Unions respectively.​

​

In an age of ship travel, I find this a bit hard to believe. I know that John Mulford some years ago said there was no evidence for this. And if there is no evidence then it's not really a claim that should be made. But it seems so specific with a handover year.

Any thoughts?

H kiap


I am in the John Mulford camp. People like John, Tom Hickie and Sean Fagan inspired me with their books to go back and search the old newspapers to find the references and quotes that they used. There is (to my knowledge) no evidence that the Southern Rugby Football Union was "administered" from the RFU in England.

It is clear that they had a strong loyalty to the "home countries" and as British colonials wanted to maintain links with "home". I have a memory (no proof) that they were affiliated at some stage with the RFU and that could be why the "administered" term appears.

The loyalty to "God, King and Empire" gives you an insight in why the Metropolitan RU (then in charge of Sydney rugby) with the NSWRU closed down the comp during World War 1.

This desire to keep link (tours) with the UK unions was also one reason the NSWRU didn't take the option to pay their players in 1908 and fight off rugby league with money. They could have chosen to do so but would have been "excommunicated".

It is not clear why they chose to call themselves the "Southern" union instead of "NSW" especially as they were saying that they were imitating the NSW Cricket Association. There is a theory that they were copying the styling of the RFU in that the RFU was the "northern" union (with regard to the planet) and the SRFU was the southern union "down under".

If this was true, it got muddled when Queensland decided to call itself the "Northern Rugby Union" their north (and south) referring to Australia.

Just an aside I tried to post scans of the actual newspaper articles in my post but technology got the better of me and the buggers disappeared! Luckily I had retyped one of them so the post still made some sense. But I'm sorry the description of the early games went somewhere out into cyber space. Bugger!

 

[red son]

H kiap


Just had another thought about your quote. Even though we all have thought (me included) that there was a comp since 1874. The competition didn't start till 1883. So the quote is technically wrong. There were "premiers" declared since 1874 - however games were organised by the clubs between themselves. Like the UK system. "Friendlies" if you like, except not so friendly.

In 1882 a couple of significant event occurred. Qld toured to NSW and NSW went to NZ. First overseas tour ever.

In 1883 the union was given a cup and organised the "Gardiner Challenge

Cup". They also adopted the scoring system in 1883 that the NSW team had to agree to when they toured NZ. That is "points" decide who won a match not just "goals". Up till then tries had no value.

 

[kiap]

H kiap

I am in the John Mulford camp. People like John, Tom Hickie and Sean Fagan inspired me with their books to go back and search the old newspapers to find the references and quotes that they used. There is (to my knowledge) no evidence that the Southern Rugby Football Union was "administered" from the RFU in England.

It is clear that they had a strong loyalty to the "home countries" and as British colonials wanted to maintain links with "home". I have a memory (no proof) that they were affiliated at some stage with the RFU and that could be why the "administered" term appears.

Many thanks. And that makes sense.

Probably needs to be corrected on the several wikipedia pages that make the claim.

Re: newspaper scans, I'm sure you're familiar with the National Library's Trove resource which has nearly all of the country's old newspapers online. I found one on the SRFU founding (and there was no mention on the RFU being involved, just the various reps from clubs and schools):

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162480041

 

[red son]

Many thanks. And that makes sense.

Probably needs to be corrected on the several wikipedia pages that make the claim.

Re: newspaper scans, I'm sure you're familiar with the National Library's Trove resource which has nearly all of the country's old newspapers online. I found one on the SRFU founding (and there was no mention on the RFU being involved, just the various reps from clubs and schools):

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/162480041

Thanks for the link. Yes do know trove. Discovered it in 2014. Must get back to it.