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Sydney Subbies 2019

Heavyd

Vay Wilson (31)
Apparently so mate.. It is "Ladies Day" so if it ever happens it'll be this week you'd hope. Also pretty sure we've been given an ultimatum by subbies that if we don't field a 3's this week that it's binned for the rest of the year, so the club will be moving heaven and earth to get 3's on. again, probably to the detriment of the club when its probably just going to be a warm up game for 2's who are already going to get a fearful belting. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. what a situation.

We're copping it from subbies despite us expressing our concern about remaining in div 3 and fielding the teams. "Stay in div 3 they said. it'll be fun they said".

The days of subbies threatening clubs are over. The threat of relegation means nothing when many are fighting for their very existence. We had issues a few years ago when we said we couldn’t field a 4th grade and they said don’t worry it will be fun. Then two rounds in they said where is our 4th grade when we started forefeiting and threatened us with relegation.

On a side note there was talk earlier in the year of a Saints/Brothers merger. What was the sticking point over that not happening. Hindsight’s a beautiful thing but at the very least you would have put of all grades and been competitive in each.
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
Kings OB ran out 2 teams for Halligan Cup the last two weekends. Sitting 1st and 5th.


Couldn't put a single grade in Meldrum Cup.

Disgraceful
 

HeavyB

Alfred Walker (16)
The days of subbies threatening clubs are over. The threat of relegation means nothing when many are fighting for their very existence. We had issues a few years ago when we said we couldn’t field a 4th grade and they said don’t worry it will be fun. Then two rounds in they said where is our 4th grade when we started forefeiting and threatened us with relegation.

On a side note there was talk earlier in the year of a Saints/Brothers merger. What was the sticking point over that not happening. Hindsight’s a beautiful thing but at the very least you would have put of all grades and been competitive in each.

That exact situation is happening with us now with our 3rd grade. I couldn't believe it, they were absolutely warned, we were up front....

Yeah, "Northern Saints" was actually supposed to be the name of the merged club. I know, I'm with you and I was very much in the "Yes" camp over the merge. However, the major sticking points were Brothers would apparently have lost its pretty substantial financial sponsorship from an old boy (which financed the payment of players for so many years) because he wouldn't have continued his support. I am of the belief that the money is no good if there is no club.....

The other sticking point was board representation and control, the junior club and where it fits in - As I understand it, Saints were demanding everything be merged with 3 board seats for St Ives seniors, 3 for St Ives Juniors and 3 for Brothers and Brothers didn't like that arrangement given we would already be moving home grounds. I think the fear was we would just be swallowed up.
 

HeavyB

Alfred Walker (16)
Hindsight is a wonderful thing indeed, because this time last year we had bargaining power and were in a strong position to negotiate given we'd just dusted them 83-0 in 1sts and would have been providing essentially the entire first grade side.

If we revisit the idea now (which we won't anyway, because we're stubborn as fuck), we go cap in hand back to Saints....
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
However, the major sticking points were Brothers would apparently have lost its pretty substantial financial sponsorship from an old boy (which financed the payment of players for so many years) because he wouldn't have continued his support.

FFS. That is peak rugby right there...


The other sticking point was board representation and control, the junior club and where it fits in - As I understand it, Saints were demanding everything be merged with 3 board seats for St Ives seniors, 3 for St Ives Juniors and 3 for Brothers and Brothers didn't like that arrangement given we would already be moving home grounds. I think the fear was we would just be swallowed up.


However, I can completely understand that.

In other news: Merrylands have forfeited 2nds this week against Saints.
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
Why should they have to, if they don't want to?


Because its bad enough we have a pile of clubs shedding grades at a rate of knots; to aggravate that by creating BYE rounds with uneven club numbers in a Division - and only 6 clubs in Division 5 - is utter bullshit.
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
What's the alternative?

Not playing at all?

The odd 10's or 7's game?


2nd Grade as 10s is certainly an option, and one I've suggested to Subbies. Sevens is less useful as it doesn't have competitive tight five play (which everyone knows is the whole point ;))

But deciding you can't get your shit together for Week 1, then suddenly running out 2 separate XVs (plus some reserves, by the looks) in Weeks 2 & 3, looks like bullshit. Only had to get half those blokes together a fortnight before to decide there was a Meldrum Cup spot in it for everyone.
 

The Burke

Stan Wickham (3)
Brothers complaining about other teams is a bit rich. I seem to recall hearing about an incident several years back about a brothers player calling the cops on a from Rockdale and charging him with assault. But as much as I dislike them, still hate seeing the downward slide.

I had suggested to a few people that a Summer 10s comp would be a great idea. Run it like touch footy in the one location that hopefully has a few fields not used by cricket. So long as it is graded accordingly it would be fun, fitness, good recruiting tool and could be used to train new refs.
 

Nath

Bill Watson (15)
2nd Grade as 10s is certainly an option, and one I've suggested to Subbies. Sevens is less useful as it doesn't have competitive tight five play (which everyone knows is the whole point ;))

But deciding you can't get your shit together for Week 1, then suddenly running out 2 separate XVs (plus some reserves, by the looks) in Weeks 2 & 3, looks like bullshit. Only had to get half those blokes together a fortnight before to decide there was a Meldrum Cup spot in it for everyone.

But why can't just play halligans if they want?

Isn't that the whole charter of subbies rugby, give guys a game who want one on the weekend?

Given that they're an old boys team, it's possible the 2 sides have bugger all to do with each other. One may have finished school in a certain year, and the others 5 years later.
 

HeavyB

Alfred Walker (16)
Brothers complaining about other teams is a bit rich. I seem to recall hearing about an incident several years back about a brothers player calling the cops on a from Rockdale and charging him with assault. But as much as I dislike them, still hate seeing the downward slide.

I had suggested to a few people that a Summer 10s comp would be a great idea. Run it like touch footy in the one location that hopefully has a few fields not used by cricket. So long as it is graded accordingly it would be fun, fitness, good recruiting tool and could be used to train new refs.


Yeah, I actually have heard that story told a few times... Definitely wayyy before my time at the club. I think we're talking roughly 15 years ago now?

The way its been told to me is a bit different. I heard it was an off duty police officer at the ground who reported an assault. Apparently the Brothers bloke got properly bashed as well. I don't think that was a single punch incident or anything...

haha yeah I accept that our club isn't exactly everyone's favourite and that's fine, there are obviously reasons for that.. still, it is sad... the club has been around for over 70 years and looks pretty cooked now if I'm completely honest. 1-2 blokes who organise things at the club get fed up leave and its done. Its not a fun place to be right now for the players or anyone involved with it.

Thats why I guess I look at your Mosman's and Colleagues etc and just go "fuck, really, 10 teams...". By all means have a strong club, but thats taking the piss surely.. Probably just from my frustrated perspective though I guess.
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
But why can't just play halligans if they want?

Isn't that the whole charter of subbies rugby, give guys a game who want one on the weekend?


Well, we might as well just all show up when we feel like it then. Or play touch footy down the park.

By all means run Halligan Cup when you've got extra players, but get 1 Grade going, or how else are you going to grow?

Throw in the fact that suddenly you've got refs who have to go to different places every week, and how is that structure going to assist rugby overall?
 

Rugby Central

Charlie Fox (21)
That exact situation is happening with us now with our 3rd grade. I couldn't believe it, they were absolutely warned, we were up front..

Yeah, "Northern Saints" was actually supposed to be the name of the merged club. I know, I'm with you and I was very much in the "Yes" camp over the merge. However, the major sticking points were Brothers would apparently have lost its pretty substantial financial sponsorship from an old boy (which financed the payment of players for so many years) because he wouldn't have continued his support. I am of the belief that the money is no good if there is no club...

The other sticking point was board representation and control, the junior club and where it fits in - As I understand it, Saints were demanding everything be merged with 3 board seats for St Ives seniors, 3 for St Ives Juniors and 3 for Brothers and Brothers didn't like that arrangement given we would already be moving home grounds. I think the fear was we would just be swallowed up.

Brothers has no juniors and until they can start attracting a decent number of St Pius X old boys the name is about all there is left anyway. Given the hyper sensitive, gender neutral, snowflake view of the world today, a name like "Brothers" is hardly conducive to commercial viability. Don't shoot the messenger on this.

So your options are look like a prostitute or look weak. Ok, being a little facetious. The fact is the benefactors money does not seem to be helping Brothers at all. It might be better to negotiate survival in name/part only. Given the Saint Pius X history "Northern Saints" is hardly a bad option. The combined club with one of the best grounds (and bars) in Subbies could improve recruitment in the area to the point where Brothers can once again be revived independently.

In merging, it might be changed but at least Brothers will have a future. Going alone will only see the club fold and that's a truly crap outcome for everyone involved.
 

Nath

Bill Watson (15)
Well, we might as well just all show up when we feel like it then. Or play touch footy down the park.

By all means run Halligan Cup when you've got extra players, but get 1 Grade going, or how else are you going to grow?

Throw in the fact that suddenly you've got refs who have to go to different places every week, and how is that structure going to assist rugby overall?

They're a club, who, as I understand it. Draw just about all of their players from former students of 1 school.

There is no growth potential.

Why does a club "HAVE TO" have growth ambitions?
 

HeavyB

Alfred Walker (16)
Brothers has no juniors and until they can start attracting a decent number of St Pius X old boys the name is about all there is left anyway. Given the hyper sensitive, gender neutral, snowflake view of the world today, a name like "Brothers" is hardly conducive to commercial viability. Don't shoot the messenger on this.

So your options are look like a prostitute or look weak. Ok, being a little facetious. The fact is the benefactors money does not seem to be helping Brothers at all. It might be better to negotiate survival in name/part only. Given the Saint Pius X history "Northern Saints" is hardly a bad option. The combined club with one of the best grounds (and bars) in Subbies could improve recruitment in the area to the point where Brothers can once again be revived independently.

In merging, it might be changed but at least Brothers will have a future. Going alone will only see the club fold and that's a truly crap outcome for everyone involved.

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything you've said.... I've never liked the name. I'd prefer it go back to CBOB's or even perhaps Pius Old Boys. The club is essentially only Pius Old Boys... I am one of the only (non Fijian) players at the club I can think of that didn't go to Pius. They do try and maintain a link there to the school and get down to some Pius events but its been a struggle.

Any decent players go to Gordon, Norths obviously and there aren't massive numbers playing rugby at Pius as it is, its hardly a schoolboy rugby powerhouse. Probably as many if not more Pius Old Boys playing for BOBs actually, or so I'm told.. I think the club has gone too far in a direction of "come down and get pissed and don't really commit seriously or train etc" to those Year 12 kids.... In my opinion we've just ended up providing an outlet for groups of colties who've just wanted to continue playing some casual rugby with mates and not all necessarily ever think of committing to the club beyond that.

As I've said, I was firmly in the "yes" camp for the Saints merge and whole heartedly agree, but what can you do....
 

Pfitzy

Jason Little (69)
They're a club, who, as I understand it. Draw just about all of their players from former students of 1 school.

There is no growth potential.

No? From The King's School - a GPS Rugby school - there is no growth potential?

In any case, not all of them are Kings Old Boys, just as not everyone playing for Mac Uni are students.

Five years ago, Kings OB had 4 Grades, then their exco then decided to try and contest Div 3 without any real justification. What they did have was the knowledge they lost an entire 4th grade who won the title they'd been seeking for years, and retired.

It put the club in serious peril and now they're back, apparently with numbers, but don't want to commit to anything like regular competition.


Why does a club "HAVE TO" have growth ambitions?

Because if you're not striving to go forward, you'll end up going backwards. Look at the number of clubs from Divs 5/6 who don't exist any more, and those who started but collapsed because 1 team wasn't sustainable, or indeed are struggling to survive.

There are a few reasons this happens, but two stand out:

1) You've got nowhere for "social" guys to play, so they don't hang around and can't learn or get better, or support the club

2) The crack team you run out in First Grade every week - or evan a key couple of players - decide to move on or retire, and nobody else has been given a go to fill those gaps.

Of course, there is the over-arching issue that the club is run like a bucket of shit, either through existing on money that is incompatible with our amateur status, or simply because there are no volunteers (i.e. growth) due to club culture or demographics.

Here's a list of clubs who I've played against - since 2007 Season - who are now gone:

Oakhill Old Boys
Killara West-Pymble
Norwest Rugby
Rockdale Rangers
Bankstown
Notre Dame Uni
St George
Liverpool (as high as Division 2)
Fairvale/Lansvale
Roseville

There are other clubs I did NOT play against who came, played a year or two, and died (ICMS), or who had long and proud histories but eventually ran out of puff (Terrey Hills, Collaroy, Dundas Valley).

Redfield Old Boys started back in 2012, with 2 Grades, and have constantly sought growth - despite as I understand it, only getting a trickle of players from the school each year. Sydney Irish are in a similar boat but rely on the blokes coming and going from O/S so their recruitment is a little different to most clubs.
 

Seagull Butler

Chris McKivat (8)
There are a few reasons this happens, but two stand out:
1) You've got nowhere for "social" guys to play, so they don't hang around and can't learn or get better, or support the club


Or indeed run the club, of our playing committee members this year, over half haven't started 1st grade this year.
 
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