Sydney Subbies 2025

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Where are these guys that want to play week in week out? Most are already heavily involved in running clubs and getting teams on the park. As Pfitzy said a lot are weary but it’s not the reason why numbers are declining. The reason the number of games per season is dropping is cause clubs simply don’t have the players to fill out the higher divisions. You can’t run an 18 round season with 5 teams in the comp.
Rugby people love to pick fault and look back and go how great was it we by can’t it be like that. Rather then saying how can we adjust our structures to take pressure off clubs to allow them to get through this period and then help them grow when things rebound.

 

[footy_footy]

It is perhaps a pessimistic outlook but as the Subbies landscape stands it is more probable than not that playing numbers and number of teams will only shrink in coming years. You only need to have a look at the "Subbies Dashboard" in the Annual Reports to see a pretty clear trajectory. Whilst there were increased playing numbers from 2023 to 2024, the number of clubs and teams did not grow. I think clubs are aspirational and want to grow but don't have the resources available to do it or sustain it - that be players (quality and quantity), finances and volunteers (quality and quantity).

I appreciate that someone always has to come last but the gulf between the top and bottom of Div 1 grows. There isn't a single outlier in Div 1 at the bottom. Is the solution to drop the number of required grades in each Division outside Div 1? Try to increase the quality of a club's on-field with fresh reserves, a luxury most clubs can't afford? Can the Halligan Cup become more formalised for the clubs that regularly have excess teams to the division?

As it stands there are 13 teams that can meet the traditional 4 grade and 1 colts teams - Hunters Hill (w/JJC), Waverley, Blue Mountains, Colleagues (w/JJC), Lindfield (w/JJC), Mosman, Newport (w/JJC), Drummoyne, UNSW (w/JJC), Petersham (w/ Chivarovski Cup), Briars (w/ Chivarovski Cup), St Pat's (w/JJC) and Forest (w/JJC).

Sydney Irish obviously don't have Colts and don't have a 4th Grade - whether they have ambition or capability to grow I don't know.

9 of these clubs have a women's team and my understanding is that the ability to field a women's team will be a significant factor in 2026. Mosman are already on the front foot and I can only imagine Waverley, Blue Mountains and Drummoyne have similar ambitions.

No easy answers but there would seem to be a need for divisional re-structure. Whether it's clubs in the division or the format of the division.

 

[The Wombat]

Going fully amateur hasn’t helped playing numbers

 

[Pfitzy]

Going fully amateur hasn’t helped playing numbers

Trying to be semi-professional has killed a lot of clubs in rugby league land, as an observation

 

[Numberthree]

So what has changed?
Is it people? Family and time pressures aren't new. Some say volunteerism has taken a nose dive since covid, anyone can guess what the driver for that is?
Or is it rugby being on the nose? Only so long you can underperform at the top level before people go onto something different.
Is it subbies being ultimately unfulfilling? Short disjointed seasons, lack of post game craic, clubs always on the ropes.
Or is it something else?

 

[Pfitzy]

Is it subbies being ultimately unfulfilling?

You seem to keep banging on about this. Clearly you've never been part of a Subbies club.

 

[Pfitzy]

Div 5- We could see a repeat of Div 2 if Valley pulls off the upset vs Redfield for double points. It’s Redfields to loose though I don’t think they will want to go to Div 3 any time soon. Valley could be the ones to bolster that comp with Redfields young squad to dominate thus division for a number of years.

Redfield will win CC by about 1000 points I think, looking at the likely outcomes. That double points game against HVRU is delicious but I just think the youth factor is massive - the cohesion they have is going to make them very hard to beat again this year.

Could ROBRs go to Third Div? They've got a lot of Colts age players but the question is whether they have enough across the board to go 14 rounds with 3 teams.

Could Valley get back there? They've got the opposite problem in that they don't have enough Colts age players according to their team sheets. Their seniors have a lot of guys with birth years staring "19" so might be hard to sustain.

Is Colts even going to be a thing for Third Div next year? Remains to be seen.

 

[footy_footy]

Is it subbies being ultimately unfulfilling? Short disjointed seasons, lack of post game craic, clubs always on the ropes.

Bit of a generalisation. Some people don't want to train two nights a week for 75% of the year. I'd also suggest that a lot of Subbies clubs have a great social scene that - week in week out Subbies clubs insta pages are full of content of players and supporters having a laugh. Rarely see that on the Shute social media pages.

There are obviously exceptions and clubs that do struggle on and off the field but think I think it's important not to consider Premier Clubs & Subbies Clubs as competitors for 90%+ of situations. Yea there may be some top line talent at the better clubs that would be weighing up Subbies or Shute grade as a genuine decision, but the overwhelming majority of Subbies guys aren't' interested in Shute and vice versa. The two streams of rugby catering for different people.

 

[Pfitzy]

the overwhelming majority of Subbies guys aren't' interested in Shute and vice versa. The two streams of rugby catering for different people.

Which is a shame, in a way, because we should all have full support for rugby.

Speaking to people at Parra Eels really enforces how mind-boggling our systems are. "Aren't you aligned with Eastwood or Two Blues?" is one question that I almost laugh when answering.

 

[Here To Do]

Which is a shame, in a way, because we should all have full support for rugby.

Speaking to people at Parra Eels really enforces how mind-boggling our systems are. "Aren't you aligned with Eastwood or Two Blues?" is one question that I almost laugh when answering.

Subbies and Shute are apples and oranges - one is a competitive level that should be feeding the professional game (stifle your laughter, I know) and one is a game for those who want a game.

It's the lower grades of SRU and the higher divs of Subbies where things get murky - that's the area we're struggling with. 3rd and 4th grade, 2nd and 3rd Colts SRU and Kentwell (maybe even Burke) and Barbour seem to be almost parallel to each other. If you're not playing 1sts SRU you're probably not going to ever graduate to Super - meanwhile those playing in the higher grades in Div 1 and 2 Subbies do get some attention.

Having learnt more about the history of rugby here I'm almost surprised we haven't discussed returning to some form of crossover as was done previously - a level above Subbies for those that want to become a more competitive club (thinking of the Drummoynes and Mosmans of the world) but below the Shute. That's a whole other debate I sense.

 

[WoodyWoodsman]

Subbies and Shute are apples and oranges - one is a competitive level that should be feeding the professional game (stifle your laughter, I know) and one is a game for those who want a game.

It's the lower grades of SRU and the higher divs of Subbies where things get murky - that's the area we're struggling with. 3rd and 4th grade, 2nd and 3rd Colts SRU and Kentwell (maybe even Burke) and Barbour seem to be almost parallel to each other. If you're not playing 1sts SRU you're probably not going to ever graduate to Super - meanwhile those playing in the higher grades in Div 1 and 2 Subbies do get some attention.

Having learnt more about the history of rugby here I'm almost surprised we haven't discussed returning to some form of crossover as was done previously - a level above Subbies for those that want to become a more competitive club (thinking of the Drummoynes and Mosmans of the world) but below the Shute. That's a whole other debate I sense.

Isn't that essentially Division 1.

 

[DaSchmooze]

Subbies and Shute are apples and oranges - one is a competitive level that should be feeding the professional game (stifle your laughter, I know) and one is a game for those who want a game.

It's the lower grades of SRU and the higher divs of Subbies where things get murky - that's the area we're struggling with. 3rd and 4th grade, 2nd and 3rd Colts SRU and Kentwell (maybe even Burke) and Barbour seem to be almost parallel to each other. If you're not playing 1sts SRU you're probably not going to ever graduate to Super - meanwhile those playing in the higher grades in Div 1 and 2 Subbies do get some attention.

Having learnt more about the history of rugby here I'm almost surprised we haven't discussed returning to some form of crossover as was done previously - a level above Subbies for those that want to become a more competitive club (thinking of the Drummoynes and Mosmans of the world) but below the Shute. That's a whole other debate I sense.

Drummoyne would like to see you after class Here To Do

I recall legal challenges from Drummoyne during the early 90s about this very issue.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

The thing is as Pftizty said, It should all flow from NSW down. It’s a broken system that everyone is too busy looking after their own backyard to be interested in fixing.
No a Drummoyne won’t be playing in Shute shield (regardless of results). But the Shute clubs have a pool of Subbies clubs that they are aligned with and rather than running numerous grades players are pushed out into Subbies clubs and both groups support each other. Then underneath the junior clubs exist and it’s not just about wanting to play for your Shute shield club but having Subbies as an option as well ensuring more players coming through.

From this structure you can spin Old Boys and Women’s comps rather than every club having to push volunteers to make on more roles for sides playing at different times.

It will never happen given our current spread of clubs both in Shute and Subbies. Some areas would be markedly stronger whilst others would have limited clubs. No one wants to be told that there club should merge with another even if they are just down the road.

Rugby keeps dieing a little bit from the bottom each year and we keep thinking it’s ok until we get to an untenable position where there is only 4 Division 1 sized clubs. Or not enough to form a division.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

Given we have a few catch up games and a Div 6 round scheduled there would be a few nervous clubs given the weather today. Especially those catching up additional games.

 

[Pfitzy]

Given we have a few catch up games and a Div 6 round scheduled there would be a few nervous clubs given the weather today. Especially those catching up additional games.

The low pressure cell is set to clear late tomorrow. Weekend looks much better but depends on how good the drainage is I guess.

 

[Odyssey_Park the 2nd]

The low pressure cell is set to clear late tomorrow. Weekend looks much better but depends on how good the drainage is I guess.

Still I’ll enjoy my week off without having to worry about wether council opens the ground late Friday