The case for Anthony Fainga'a to wear the Green and Gold

[cyclopath]

No problem, just avoiding the doubling up...here you go.

 

[barbarian]

You keep talking about the 'right game style' without ever explaining what it means. Can you please?

You say JOC (James O'Connor) is too small for IC and yet according to the Wallaby profiles here it says that he is actually 2cm taller and the same weight as Ant. These details are always a bit sketchy but regardless it shows they are about the same.

 

[redsfanatic]

You keep talking about the 'right game style' without ever explaining what it means. Can you please?

You say JOC (James O'Connor) is too small for IC and yet according to the Wallaby profiles here it says that he is actually 2cm taller and the same weight as Ant. These details are always a bit sketchy but regardless it shows they are about the same.

Well, Fainga'a runs hard and straight, while also having an okay pass. He has a quick mind and understands the game. Then he is also an outstanding defender. He is more attacking then Barnes. He and Quade combine really wel together. I understand what you are saying about JOC (James O'Connor), and fair enough. Robbie may be just talking about his general shape or something. I dunno but I do know that Deans won't play JOC (James O'Connor) at 12. Also JOC (James O'Connor) can play a similar game to Cooper and may be better to put JOC (James O'Connor) on the bench as an impact player.

 

[daz]

but I do know that Deans won't play JOC (James O'Connor) at 12. .

I've got some loose change in my pocket that says at some point (and however briefly) in this 2011 international calendar window, you are dead wrong.

 

[light]

JOC (James O'Connor) won't be on the bench, he's our best kicker. I don't think this is a case of Fainga'a offering too little, but more so O'Connor offering alot more. Whilst Mitchell is injured I can see a point in having Fainga'a at 12 and JOC (James O'Connor) at 14, in which case Fainga'a's main opposition would be Giteau and Barnes (if fit). When Mitchell comes back we would have to make room for him and he's a specialist winger, I'd have JOC (James O'Connor) at 12 any day in that team set up. Fainga'a is a straight running defensive centre and is bloody good in the reds set up, but the WOBS already have AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 for that and it doesn't make sense to change that.

O'Connor is by far and away one of our best backs, I would only rate him behind QC (Quade Cooper), Beale and Genia at this point and looking to the future he is one of our main prospects. Fainga'a off the bench is a completely different arguement and one that I am not against, he would have sufficient impact and if JOC (James O'Connor) isn't helping QC (Quade Cooper) in defence or our backline combinations just aren't working he would be a good lifeline to have on the bench.

I wouldn't like to drop one of our best players, our goal kicker and one of the fastest players on the paddock in order to make a combination that has only been proven to be succesful at super XV level. Keep the Genia-Cooper combination, Ioane adds enough Red influence in the backline if Quade decides that JOC (James O'Connor) or AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) can't help him in set plays.

Only way I can see Fainga'a getting on the paddock is if whoever our 12 may be, is missing tackles and our opposition are running through huge holes between 10 and 12. He's a good bench option but I think Deans prefers McCabe as he has more utility value, that and the last Fainga'a to play for Australia really didn't perform...

 

[redsfanatic]

I've got some loose change in my pocket that says at some point (and however briefly) in this 2011 international calendar window, you are dead wrong.

I guess I worded that incorectly. JOC (James O'Connor) probably will play a little bit there, and possibly even on Sunday, but he won't be the main inside and probably won't play there for any big matches.

 

[light]

I guess I worded that incorectly. JOC (James O'Connor) probably will play a little bit there, and possibly even on Sunday, but he won't be the main inside and probably won't play there for any big matches.

beg to differ on that, IMO Barnes is our first choice 12 and if fit, should be in the starting XV. His combination with Cooper at the end of last year was brilliant and I think Deans is a very big fan of Barnes at 12. His game relies on tactical kicking and I think any player who is replacing him will either a) need to have incredible vision and speed to work off Quade and b) have a good kicking game.

IMO Giteau would be second choice 12 behind Barnes just due to experience and his signs of form towards the end of the super XV season, although not brilliant at international level I think he still has alot to offer. Also a kicking centre who can defensive cover any QC (Quade Cooper) defficiencies and has an above average pass, mixed with the speed and ability to go by himself and find gaps (something Fainga'a lacks I believe).

My third choice 12 would be JOC (James O'Connor) and I'd only have him at 12 if Mitchell is fit, JOC (James O'Connor) is our 3rd best winger aswell and whilst we have such depth in the centres we need all the quality wingers we can get. Mitchells return would push JOC (James O'Connor) to 12 and I think he would take Giteau's place in the starting XV if it comes down to it. Primarily due to his goal kicking and superior speed, also his willingness to do work around the park and play above his weight.

Fainga'a would be my 4th choice 12, and probably 2nd choice 13 behind AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) obviously offers the same gametype as Fainga'a, except he's faster, stronger, proven and experienced. I'd prefer A.Fainga'a starting than McCabe if it comes down to it, purely because McCabe has great utility value off the bench and I don't see a point in having Fainga'a on the bench if McCabe is starting.

Just my thoughts, Fainga'a is closer to the 13 jersey than the 12 jersey and it's got nothing to do with his combination with Quade. More his individual assets such as his defensive work and his style of play.

 

[redsfanatic]

fair enough i guess but i might have to agree to disagree because imo Fainga'a should still be 12. But your justification is good. Barnes was at his best his last season with the Reds in 2008. He was a lot more aggressive, and was working extremely well with Cooper. When he moved to the Waratahs, their coaching staff made him a lot more conservative to suit the Tahs game plan. The Wallabies are trying to play a similar game plan to the Reds but a little more conservative in my eyes and I think Barnes will kick too much. Fainga'a can tell when Cooper wants it to be passed and Fainga'a follows Cooper whereas Barnes likes to kick more and is used to leading a backline and making the decisions himself, and also used to lead Cooper at the Reds. I personally think the Wallabies need Fainga'a who will follow Cooper and knows instinctively what Cooper wants to happen.

 

[Lee Grant]

I have said a few times that Anthony defended poorly in his only test start: last year when the Blacks scored two tries and won 20-10 or something like that, and that he was the one most responsible for both. It wasn't in rush defence knock'em over situations, it was in where to be fluid situations. He wasn't in place to fire a shot and he could have been and should have been.

He deserves another chance to start in test matches but perhaps not in a RWC year.

 

[TOCC]

I have said a few times that Anthony defended poorly in his only test start: last year when the Blacks scored two tries and won 20-10 or something like that, and that he was the one most responsible for both. It wasn't in rush defence knock'em over situations, it was in where to be fluid situations. He wasn't in place to fire a shot and he could have been and should have been.

He deserves another chance to start in test matches but perhaps not in a RWC year.

Wasnt he been played at outside centre, or he was defending at outside centre?

 

[light]

I understand your point and it makes perfect sense but the success of the Reds in 2011 has been with Quade defending at 15. His counter attacking has been brilliant and he knows things no body else knows, perhaps not a scarier person in world rugby to have returning the ball (IMO Beale is better). But regardless I think Ioane provides the link in the backline that will allow Cooper to play his natural game. There isn't really a need to bring in another Reds player just for the sake of getting the combinations right, if Cooper-Barnes isn't working so well because Barnes kicking is off, then we just bring on Giteau/O'Connor and issue is somewhat fixed, that and Quade can call in Digby at any time and all of a sudden he has two straight running centres on the field.

I think there's an advantage with starting JOC (James O'Connor) at 12 and Digby at 11. That being that if JOC (James O'Connor) isn't providing the impact needed, Digby can come inside and like you say 'read Quade's mind' and do all the straight running you would expect from Fainga'a, with the assistance of AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper). Also JOC (James O'Connor) is no slouch on the wing so that transition would work well and not require a substition which we may need for our forwards later in the match.

 

[Athilnaur]

Don't rate A Fainga'a myself, his asset is supposed to be his defense - it clearly isn't his attack, straight or otherwise - and yet I have seen him completely fail to appreciate where the attack is coming from at critical times at both levels.

Take the Super Rugby final, he had no idea Carter was going to make that move for the try, and there he was - leaving an overly wide space and turning around wide-eyed when Carter made the dash.

That said yes he did manage to contain SBW to a fair degree. I am not saying he is useless, far from it, but he isn't bullet proof as a defender and thats the argument for putting him by QC (Quade Cooper).

I'd rather have TC if we are opting for a hard defender centre. By a large margin because TC does also bring an ability to penetrate. He also compensates for his lack of speed by being able to read the game. Which is the essence of my concern for A Fainga'a, I don't think he reads the game.

McCabe is a far wiser choice, he brings defense and utility.

I fully accept I am an oddball on this board to say it, but I just keep struggling to see his game.

 

[drewprint]

Take the Super Rugby final, he had no idea Carter was going to make that move for the try, and there he was - leaving an overly wide space and turning around wide-eyed when Carter made the dash.

Geez that's rough. He had him totally covered, but there's not much you can do when someone puts in a lovely grubber through for themselves.

 

[Bruce Ross]

the success of the Reds in 2011 has been with Quade defending at 15.

It has been observed that a principal reason why English has become the world's dominant language is that it is constantly evolving. Here we see a new usage of the word "defending".

 

[Lee Grant]

Wasnt he been played at outside centre, or he was defending at outside centre?

He was named at 12 with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 13 but who was playing where was not the point as they were fluid situations - the first one on the blind side IIRR. He didn't read what was going on. The 2nd one ended up as a walkabout as he wandered out of the line and Nonu ran where he wasn't.

He has no doubt learned from that but it should be proven next year.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

I find it interesting that Fainga'a is often talked about as cover for QC (Quade Cooper). For mine, QC (Quade Cooper) makes Fainga'a look good rather than the other way around. I would also pick TC before Fainga'a but would prefer that neither was picked for the Wallabies as neither are Test quality. My justification for TC is that he reads the play better than Fainga'a and so is not caught out of position defensively. I also feel Fainga'a turns the ball over too much in contact.
I know many will disagree but that's life.

 

[ACT Crusader]

Still think AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is the best 12, while Rabbit still develops his test game. Plus the Beale/Rabbit combo at the back is very good.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) at 12 and either Horne or Diggers at 13.

 

[WB3]

It has been observed that a principal reason why English has become the world's dominant language is that it is constantly evolving. Here we see a new usage of the word "defending".

Tres droll.

Perhaps counter-attacking is a better term.

 

[Lindommer]

Really? I seriously just made this then. I only joined today, so I haven't really read many threads.

You've only joined G&GR today and already you've got 39 posts. Welcome and well done, tiger. Now take a deep breath and have a good look around.

 

[chief]

I have said a few times that Anthony defended poorly in his only test start: last year when the Blacks scored two tries and won 20-10 or something like that, and that he was the one most responsible for both. It wasn't in rush defence knock'em over situations, it was in where to be fluid situations. He wasn't in place to fire a shot and he could have been and should have been.

He deserves another chance to start in test matches but perhaps not in a RWC year.

That's a tad rough Lee. He had one test match, and people make mistakes. I think it's a tad silly to say he's quite possibly got the potential to play in the position, but because he's stuffed up before we shouldn't select him because it's a WC year. The reality is, Deans isn't going to pick JOC (James O'Connor), and Giteau isn't what he used to be. Give the bloke another shot, as we've seen he's easily got the potential, and he has a proven track record of working with Quade Cooper. I'm not advocating for a start but I would advocate for another shot especially with our Inside Centre position being the weak link in the Wallaby backline.