The Impending Beale vs Folau vs Cooper debate

[Braveheart81]

I also question whether the 13 actually gets the ball more than a 15 who is looking to get involved.

At the very least, surely the 15 gets the opportunity to get the ball more in positions of their choosing.

 

[scaraby]

drop the honey badger?...nah he cares..... man does he care

 

[wamberal]

I also question whether the 13 actually gets the ball more than a 15 who is looking to get involved.

If the 13 does not get more touches, he is playing in the wrong team. Surely the 13 must usually be closer to the ball? In defense as well as attack? Or have I been watching the wrong game? Folau would be devastating pouncing on a dropped ball, if he is in the line. Or making a break from a half-chance.

At the very least, surely the 15 gets the opportunity to get the ball more in positions of their choosing.

So what? A good player can make something out of nothing, a great player can win a game in a twinkling of an eye, by being where the opportunity is and turning it into gold, gold, gold. A great player makes something out of opportunities that are thrust upon them, or that just happen, whether they have chosen to be on the particular spot or not. Give Folau the ball five times in routine backline situations and he will make something happen, at least once.


The more a great player gets the ball, the better.

 

[Braveheart81]

If the 13 does not get more touches, he is playing in the wrong team. Surely the 13 must usually be closer to the ball? In defense as well as attack? Or have I been watching the wrong game? Folau would be devastating pouncing on a dropped ball, if he is in the line. Or making a break from a half-chance.

The 15 gets to field kicks which the 13 generally won't get to do.

The 15 can pick and choose where they come into the backline whereas the 13's position is far more defined.

In situations where play is in the middle of the field and the backline is split either side, often the direction the 15 takes will be where the ball ends up going (certainly not all the time though).

We have seen Folau receive passes directly from Cooper (as in the try against Scotland) so there are times when the backline has the ball that the 15 will get it and the 13 will never touch it.

I'm not saying that it is an out and out fact that Folau is seeing more ball at 15 than our 13 but I certainly question whether he would get the ball more often if he was playing at 13 than currently at 15.

It would be a different question if Folau was playing fullback and barely getting involved but that is simply not the case. In most of our backline plays, Folau is joining the line at some point and getting his hands on the ball.

Your point about being able to pounce on a dropped ball if he was in the line is true, but how often does this happen each match?

 

[Lee Grant]

Folau?

I've even seen posts that KB (Kurtley Beale) should play fullback at the Tahs because Folau can play on the wing.

Others want Izzy to play 13 for the Wallabies because they want to see him play there.

Good grief; why are we even discussing these things—and even putting Cooper in the title of the thread.

Injuries aside: Folau should wear the 15 jersey and Cooper the 10.

Beale will have to prove himself at the Tahs on an off the field before the question of where he plays for Australia even arises.

I think Cheika will prefer Foley at 10 for the Tahs, because he implemented the coach's plan well last year, but you never know.

I know all the finessing of the Tahs backline that we posters can come up with as well as most and KB (Kurtley Beale) will be starting somewhere; but where he will play may not help his cause for starting for Oz.
.

 

[Train Without a Station]

No but you don't understand Lee! Izzy standing one pass closer in on a traditional backline he could revolutionize the game... or something...

Clearly being completely wasted not being constrained to the 13 channel... How can you all not see it...?

 

[Hawko]

No but you don't understand Lee! Izzy standing one pass closer in on a traditional backline he could revolutionize the game. or something.

Clearly being completely wasted not being constrained to the 13 channel. How can you all not see it.?

Needs an irony icon!

 

[cyclopath]

I'm just wondering when this debate will impend?
I mean for real, not just in wanging-on Interweb land.
I truly wonder if it will.

 

[liquor box]

I don't think that Link would want him, why would you bring a possible problem player off the field. The team is still young and can easily be led astray.

Link is not going to risk upsetting his team balance.

I think KB (Kurtley Beale) will struggle to make the squad, let alone the team.

 

[Brumbieman]

For me, the biggest thing is this: Folau changes the wy teams play us. They are not putting up bombs and waiting for us to drop them like they have for the past 5-6 years.

If you have a player who is so devestating that it forces the opposition to change how the play you, you don't then move said player and hop-e he's better in a different position. Why would you?

If we move him to 13, then teams will just return to the high ball strategy that works so well against us. With him there, they've got to find a different way, and for me that's the end of the argument.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

For me, the biggest thing is this: Folau changes the wy teams play us. They are not putting up bombs and waiting for us to drop them like they have for the past 5-6 years.

If you have a player who is so devestating that it forces the opposition to change how the play you, you don't then move said player and hop-e he's better in a different position. Why would you?

If we move him to 13, then teams will just return to the high ball strategy that works so well against us. With him there, they've got to find a different way, and for me that's the end of the argument.

Yep. I'm of the view that the best strategy to adopt in sport is to find a way of playing that the opposition can't live with and make them change. Now that's easier said than done, but an awful lot of good teams have been able to do it over the years. Just because you know what's coming doesn't mean that you can do anything to stop it. That's ideally where I'd like our play to go, imposing ourselves on the opposition.

Izzy at fullback is an example of this: he's imposed himself so much in that position that other teams are actively keeping the ball away from him.

 

[Brumbieman]

Yep. I'm of the view that the best strategy to adopt in sport is to find a way of playing that the opposition can't live with and make them change. Now that's easier said than done, but an awful lot of good teams have been able to do it over the years. Just because you know what's coming doesn't mean that you can do anything to stop it. That's ideally where I'd like our play to go, imposing ourselves on the opposition.

Izzy at fullback is an example of this: he's imposed himself so much in that position that other teams are actively keeping the ball away from him.

We had it with George Smith, Latham, Larkham etc. All the greats, and great Wallaby teams, were full of players that the opposition had to change their game plan to nullify.

If you have 3-4, then suddenly you've got a team which the opposition CAN'T plan against, because planning against one player gives another player the opportunity.

Eg Folau/Cooper. Folau is so dominant that teams are now trying to outrun us, which plays into Cooper's hands because the game becomes less structured.

NZ do it with Carter and their plethora of outside backs, but usually Dagg and Jane. Carter would pin us down with his kicking game, keep us under pressure, and we had two options: try and run it or kick. Running usually meant turning it over and opening us to counter-attack, and kicking would give Dagg and Jane what they wanted; broken field kick returns.

The only way to beat that, would have been to play someone who could out-kick Carter, or at least match him with tactical kicking. Now, if only we'd had someone who could do that

 

[Roundawhile]

I was anti Folau when he came across to rugby because I didn't believe he would stay. Thankfully I was wrong, and he has turned the 15 jersey into his alone.

I was always a QC (Quade Cooper) fan, and he has proven himself at last.

In terms of having game changers, in 2010 I thought KB (Kurtley Beale) could make a huge impact. Unfortunately that was not to be. Had he continued to relentlessly improve his game and work on his deficiencies as per the above, he could have been an all time great.

Can he do that now? As much as I wish it could be the case, I think that time is fast running out.

This is his make or break year, and I truly hope he can do it.

However all the speculation as to which position he will play in the WOBs is merely wishful thinking at this stage.

 

[It is what it is]

Folau is an absolute standout 15 who can play anywhere from 13 out.
Cooper is limited to playing at 10.
Beale for mine will add the most value by being played off the bench.
His ability to play from 10 out plus his kicking game makes him an ideal impact player.
Beale also seems to perform better in explosive bursts rather than over 60-80 mins.

 

[The Rant]

I like Folau at 15, but I don't see any reason why folau couldn't do what SBW did at number 12? Him and Foley up front would be handful.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I can't see Beale playing at 10 as we already have better options in Cooper, To'omua, Lilo and Foley....

Folau has fullback sewn up, and we have way too many talented wingers to shift him there....

So, at best - Beale to the bench/fullback cover...

Cooper no doubt, but what have those other 3 shown at 10? Have they even played at 10 at test level?

 

[Viking]

Falou in the centres ? He is a very good player but has anyone not noticed HE CANT PASS!

Sure he runs bloody brilliantly but I don't think I've even seen many offloads from him. So you can rule out a SBW type centre.

His pass to Tomane nearly cost a try. I also think he didn't pass to Cummins when he was in the clear because he has more confidence in his running game then his passing game.

Falou is the most threatening player Aus rugby, but he ain't the greatest at setting up this outside man. Not that he is completely bad but he is far from good.

Keep him at 15. He is arguably the world's best 15 (Halfpenny or Dagg) at the moment and if he keeps improving like this he will be the undisputed world's best 15 in no time.

 

[Forcefield]

I wonder how Beale would go on the wing. He made his Wallabies debut there IIRC.

 

[Dave Beat]

Not sure why this thread exists - the EOY tour cemented Cooper and Folau in my eyes.

Beale's impact may change under Chieka & Link though, he has fantastic individual skill in which under his coaches for the last 5 years hasn't really been taken advantage of when looking at game management and planning.
He can create opportunities through individual skill, but the opportunities are rarely finished.

EG - Since Link has started coaching our opportunities are resulting in tries.

Just my thoughts lets see what 2014 brings.

 

[TOCC]

So I have an idea.... What if we move Izzy even closer and play him at 5/8.. He would be devastating in the fly half channel, he would touch the ball so much more, he is big and can defend, he would be able to run through the opposition because other teams have never played against a big bloke so close to the action, it would change the way the game is played :/