The impending Hooper vs Pocock Dilemma

[Braveheart81]

It's interesting that the current best number 8 option aside from Pocock is Ita Vaea who is a complete non-entity at lineout time.

It seems like Jed Holloway and Angus Cottrell are the two guys who could potentially fill that role but they are a long way off considering they're only really just getting a crack in Super Rugby (Cottrell has obviously played a bunch of games but injury has disrupted him).

 

[Brumby Runner]

Holloway is the most outstanding option as a jumping No 8. But Vaea is handy in other areas at the lineout, ie defense, maul support and especially short throw catching - see Poey's try against the Hurricanes.

The issue around Vaea is really who plays lock and No 6. With three jumpers there, it is not critical for the No 8 to jump. He then brings much more to the position than any of the other candidates at this time.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Holloway has the most potential of the young 8's IMHO, in terms of work rate and line out ability. It will be interesting to see him develop.

 

[Viking]

Holloway has the most potential of the young 8's IMHO, in terms of work rate and line out ability. It will be interesting to see him develop.

Sick of these work-rate and line-out focused 8's. Time for a blockbusting linking 8 to have a go.

 

[Braveheart81]

Sick of these work-rate and line-out focused 8's. Time for a blockbusting linking 8 to have a go.

Holloway had two clean breaks and ran for over 60 metres.

I think Vaea will play for the Wallabies this year but he needs to improve his game against the top sides. It will be interesting how he goes against the Tahs this Friday night. Last year he was bettered by Palu in those contests.

He needs to produce some big games against big opponents because at this stage he looks a little like a flat track bully.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

Sick of these work-rate and line-out focused 8's. Time for a blockbusting linking 8 to have a go.

Holloway had an excellent game in the loose against the Reds. He's bloody quick too, which is an asset for a ball running forward. His match up with Vaea will be interesting this weekend.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Probably a bit harsh to categorise Holloway as simply a work-rate, jumping No 8. We have two of those in Big Dog and Schatz. Holloway will in (short) time far outshine those imo. But he is not in the same class as Vaea as a blockbusting runner and link to the backline (yet). I'd also much prefer to be tackled by Holloway atm than by Vaea.

Just as harsh to categorise Ita Vaea as a flat track bully. He has excellent ball skills and frequently puts players through gaps on attack, after usually having bulldozed over a tackler or two in the process. He quite obviously has great vision and feel for the game. And to consider he was returning from a career (life) threatening illness last year which had him unable to move at more than a walk for a considerable time, his form and involvement was nothing short of impressive.

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

I don't see any reason why Holloway and Vaea couldn't be in future Wallaby calculations if they keep developing as they are. They are quite different players, but as we've found out with Pocock and Hooper that's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Brumbieman]

Vaea is the future.

He's the 8 we've been wishing for since Kefu.

Choo choo!

 

[TOCC]

Vaea needs to work on his conditioning to be considered for test rugby


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[Braveheart81]

Vaea needs to work on his conditioning to be considered for test rugby

Not being a lineout option will also hurt his chances given that we have various other options within our squad that put limitations on the lineout.

Skelton at lock and McMahon as a 6 potentially hinder Vaea's chances of playing 8. In other words, Vaea isn't just competing to be picked ahead of others at 8, he's competing to be preferred to players in other positions in the pack who create selection challenges elsewhere.

 

[Viking]

Not being a lineout option will also hurt his chances given that we have various other options within our squad that put limitations on the lineout.

Skelton at lock and McMahon as a 6 potentially hinder Vaea's chances of playing 8. In other words, Vaea isn't just competing to be picked ahead of others at 8, he's competing to be preferred to players in other positions in the pack who create selection challenges elsewhere.

Locks: Simmons, another lock who isn't Skelton
6. Fardy.

problem solved. Not really as big of a selection headache as made out by many posters.

IMO, It's basically Skelton Verse Vaea, can't have both.

 

[Braveheart81]

Locks: Simmons, another lock who isn't Skelton
6. Fardy.

problem solved. Not really as big of a selection headache as made out by many posters.

IMO, It's basically Skelton Verse Vaea, can't have both.

Huh? That was the entire point of my post.

I never said he couldn't be selected. I just said his selection isn't just based on being preferred at number 8 to other options for number 8.

Of course there are plenty of permutations in the forward pack where Vaea is fine to select at 8.

 

[Brumby Runner]

I would be interested in opinions of who should be selected at No 8 for the Wallabies if Ita Vaea isn't fit enough, according to some here.

The options seem to be very narrow, being McCalman and Palu.

Ita certainly has some shape about him, but that really doesn't seem to impact his game or time on the ground as much as some are intimating. He regularly plays more game time than Cliff has for many years, and arguably more effectively as well. Remember that for at least the past two to three years, Cliff has predominantly taken possession of the ball in attack a good 15 - 20m behind the gain line and more often than not has failed to reach that gain line before succumbing to a tackle. In any case, Vaea today is more effective than Palu at what Palu does best - big defense and hard running, but Ita has the advantage of being able to set up support runners as well.

Ben McCalman is a work horse and can be relied upon to play out the 80 minutes of most games. But he is the least effective of the three with ball in hand.

I would say it should be a decision between Vaea and McCalman, and if I was a selector I'd be going with the player who offers the most aggression in attack over the one who is more steady in defense.

It does also depend on the makeup of the remainder of the forwards pack. With probably only two players in the mix to play No 8, I'm afraid I would be opting to leave Will Skelton out of the squad. There are two or three other locks who have as much, or perhaps more, influence on a game consistently than Will has been having. Among them Douglas, Jones, Coleman and Arnold.

 

[qwerty51]

Has Vaea taken a lineout yet?

 

[Brumby Runner]

Did you not see the Brumbies/Hurricanes game and the try by Pocock from a lineout? Of course, it doesn't count if it really doesn't fit with some preconceived ideas about certain players.

Just as a matter of interest, if a team had three other lineout jumpers of the calibre of Carter, Arnold (or Enever), Fardy or Smiler, who would you suggest should be avoided at the lineout just so Vaea can take a few more?

 

[Braveheart81]

Clearly this season Pocock must be the frontrunner for the 8 jersey. McCalman will presumably be next in line due to experience, versatility and a strong showing at the RWC.

I think writing off Skelton after two games in 2016 is a bit premature. People seem to be forgetting that he had surgery for a fairly major injury in October and subsequently had a short preseason.

Like most years, many of the players who are most impressive in the first few rounds are non test players who have had the benefit of the full off season. Every year discussions focus around how the test players are out of form and there should be mass changes to the Wallaby squad. By the time a couple of months have been played out and we are closer to picking a test squad, the experienced test players are generally playing better and the uncapped players are struggling to sustain the impact they had in the first few rounds.

 

[Slim 293]

Has Vaea taken a lineout yet?

I think there's an echo in here........?

I just did Vaea and it shows he has ZERO lineout takes! Is that true? For reference, Skelton has 17.

I think that rules out Vaea regardless of any other stats - especially with Skelton in the team.

Vaea has not taken a single lineout all year. Even Genia has 3.

Zero lineout takes.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Personally I think Pocock is head and shoulders above Hooper at 7.

I don't think Hooper could ever really play 6 or 8.

McCalman is a very good 8.

I would go for Poey at 7 and McCalman at 8 and would find it difficult to have Hooper in the 23 (dare I say it)

They would be better balance for the team.

 

[qwerty51]

I haven't seen the first 2 rounds of Super Rugby so I actually didn't know. Just checked Foxsports and he has won 1 lineout this year.