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The NZ/SA Rivalry, how fierce is it?

How Fierce is the New Zealand - South Africa rivarly?

  • I live to beat the South Africans/Kiwis (omit as appropriate)

    Votes: 19 50.0%
  • it's reasonably fierce I suppose, no other country provides a challenge though

    Votes: 7 18.4%
  • I prefer beating up on/getting beaten up by the Aussies (again, omit as appropriate)

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • It used to be good, not so much anymore

    Votes: 5 13.2%
  • meh, when is the End of Year tour again?

    Votes: 2 5.3%

  • Total voters
    38

Dam0

Dave Cowper (27)
I must confess that art doesn't really interest me - I'm a born Philistine in that regard unfortunately.

Having said that, the painting below looks rather intriguing. I take it chaotic sprawling works are his forte? It's hard to see quite what is going on. Where is that painting located? I might have to check it out one day if I am in the neighbourhood.
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
The bottom work "Alchemy" is in the NSW Art Gallery in the Domain.

Art is like wine. If you like it, then it is good, regardless of what anyone else claiming to be a critic or wine snob may say about its relative merits.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
Damo its hard to explain the political and social issues of two countries and the reasons behind it in two to 3 paragraphs. Also you unwillingness to read it probabyly the reason for perception over the whole issue.

The whole issue started from a single reporters telegram who was perceived as South Africa's view and asking a SA team manager if the Maori would be accepted in SA. Also asking one man who just witness a brutal game of rugby between the Maori and the Springboks to speak for a whole country. SA rugby union were never contacted nor asked nor was its government asked.

Apparently advised by Harold Bennett that Maori would not be acceptable as tourists in South Africa, the NZRFU confidentially informed its provincial affiliates in June 1927 that no Maori should be included in trials to select the 1928 All Black touring team.25 When this decision became apparent, the Akarana Maori Association protested at the 'slur on the dignity and manhood of the Maori' and insisted that the Union should have declined to send a team 'not truly representative of New Zealand as a united Maori-European people' .26 The NZRFU responded that its decision had been made in full consultation with its Maori Advisory Board. As subsequent debate in the press indicated, there was a general desire to 'protect' Maori from potential 'incidents' and insult in a country with different racial circumstances from those enjoyed in New Zealand

Harold Bennett, the Springbok team manager


Buck appealed to imperial sentiment and gentlemanly sportsmanship in urging an immediate retraction or apology from the Springboks. 'To everyone with Maori blood in their veins, no matter how small, the so-called grievance of the Springboks against playing a Maori team is an unmitigated insult. If the South Africans have any of the broadmindedness of the great Louis Botha, or the Imperialistic General Smuts, they should correct the report if it is wrong or apologise if it is correct. If a team of reputed sports will not make honourable amends and still persist in their curious attitude of drawing a colour line in sport in this country, then the New Zealand Rugby Union should, by not extending any future invitations to South Africa, protect their Maori supporters and their friends from further gratuitous insult

THings like this happen when you fail to look up each other history before delivering a culture shock.

Imagine guys who in some way had parents who died in the war or were in a concentration camp as well as being seen as inferior to the British, and are brought up on how their culture survived after being crapped on by the British who made their language illegal and when they went and try to buy lad of the natives they were told to leave their gun outside and join the celebration. After some native dancing the King ordered them to be slaughtered. Now when SA visited New Zealand the first view they got from the New Zealand natives were tribal dancing which remind one pretty much of the Zulu.

Why did they need to entertain the Sprinkboks by putting on a show? They had nothing to prove and trying to show its different and the differences between cultures especially when you try to explain that one is not as primitive the last thing you should do is to do dress up and dance like they did 50 years ago.

Why not walk up to them and talk to them?
 

Dam0

Dave Cowper (27)
I have read your last post and it does not appear to relate to the issue I thought we were discussing.
 

The Red Baron

Chilla Wilson (44)
Damo its hard to explain the political and social issues of two countries and the reasons behind it in two to 3 paragraphs. Also you unwillingness to read it probabyly the reason for perception over the whole issue.

The whole issue started from a single reporters telegram who was perceived as South Africa's view and asking a SA team manager if the Maori would be accepted in SA. Also asking one man who just witness a brutal game of rugby between the Maori and the Springboks to speak for a whole country. SA rugby union were never contacted nor asked nor was its government asked.






THings like this happen when you fail to look up each other history before delivering a culture shock.

Imagine guys who in some way had parents who died in the war or were in a concentration camp as well as being seen as inferior to the British, and are brought up on how their culture survived after being crapped on by the British who made their language illegal and when they went and try to buy lad of the natives they were told to leave their gun outside and join the celebration. After some native dancing the King ordered them to be slaughtered. Now when SA visited New Zealand the first view they got from the New Zealand natives were tribal dancing which remind one pretty much of the Zulu.

Why did they need to entertain the Sprinkboks by putting on a show? They had nothing to prove and trying to show its different and the differences between cultures especially when you try to explain that one is not as primitive the last thing you should do is to do dress up and dance like they did 50 years ago.

Why not walk up to them and talk to them?

Rassie..Please, just stop. Part of advocating your cause is understanding when you will not win any more supporters. That generally means it is time to move on. In this case, you would be wise to adhere to that advice. Move on, you will not convince any more people of your theories regarding Maori seclusion. To do so in a thread that was created in a positive spirit is actually counter productive.

I suggest you read the vast majority of posts contained in this thread, to garner the actual 'feeling' conveyed. Further page sizes posts on unrelated matters are really not interesting to anyone.
 

Rassie

Trevor Allan (34)
DAmo if you say that have no relation then I am afraid you should go do some research. The perception going around that NZRFU contacted the SA rugby union or vice versa and were told Moari players were not allowed. When the SARU were never contacted nor any requests made by the goverment.

The 1921 telegraph from a idiotic reporter were perceived as the average SA view or the view of the whole SA and then when the SA management IE Mr Bennett apologized for something they did not write or say and said it in "South African English" it was taken out of context and everyone ran with it. The quotes was from people in 1921. There were no reports in SA what was going on in New Zealand and the debate about it. Also the Maori tribes were not united as they were today and all had a different view.

Do NZ allow the Maori's have Maori only tournaments with Maori only teams playing against one another out of guilt or do they do it to make it easy for selection of the best talent?

Two different views same subject and one can take any view and run with it. It reminds me of what we get here in the Cape Flats. Especially among the woman they love to do it. Someone will say something about what another person said about him. Rather to confront the one who said it they go and fly in and start to attack the person without knowing if it was aken out of context, the truth or a lie.

Today they blame everything on the Boertjies and they are so used to being blamed for everything they apologize left right and center for things that weren't their fault or did not have knowledge of.

Shows that they are accusing the Afrikaner for the very same thing they are doing to them. You must remember in SA the native black people had two options. Stay in their tribes and being ruled by their Chief or leave their tribes and accept imperialism. They chose the latter.

In NZ the Maori had only one and that was accept imperialism or face extinction. The natives in South Africa were already being oppressed when they were in their tribes. They had no rights and could only get married when their chief approved. Woman had no say. The men had to fight and were killed if they lose and most had flee from other tribes looking to rule over them. The Kings owned all the lands and all the livestock. Power and wealth were determined by the number of livestock you owned. I bet you did not know that or frankly do not give a shit about it correct?
 

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
tl;dr
Surely you can talk about the segregation of natives in NZ and SA (or whatever it is you're going on a tangent about) in a relevant thread?
 

MajorlyRagerly

Trevor Allan (34)
If you guys want to see why NZ/SA rivalry is so fierce - watch Saturdays game from the Boks. Hard, physical rugby played by HUGE guys. It's intimidating, it's based on brute strength and it's bloody impressive to watch.

How the hell are a bunch of farmers, shy islanders & some skinnny white guys supposed to have a hope in hell vs that? Ok, thats a bit outdated - but it's still why historically we have been so proud of our team.

It's also worth pointing that in both Henry & Richies book, they both mention that over the last 5 years, they still have a beer after every game with each other in their sheds - it was disappointing to read that the Australia had declined this invitation - each to their own. I also remember reading how Richie had roomed with Smit for a Barbarians game and had talked to him for hours about how does he deal with political pressure in SA - said he's an extremely inspiring person.

You just can't buy that sort of respect.
 

Baldric

Jim Clark (26)
If you guys want to see why NZ/SA rivalry is so fierce - watch Saturdays game from the Boks. Hard, physical rugby played by HUGE guys. It's intimidating, it's based on brute strength and it's bloody impressive to watch.
If the Boks pitch up on Sat night and we can get the ref to stay out of the game we will see a classic match. Clash of the titans. Really looking forward to this one. It will be a last man standing type of game. Really regretting not booking that flight over now.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Politics discusions done and dusted, saturdays test will be the real measurement test for the Springbokke. Just have to put the garden duties on hold for the best thing rugby can throw at me. Its the big massive challenge to break Eden Park.
 

Thomond78

Colin Windon (37)
Agree with all the above but this is my personal perspective.

I grew up right smack bam in the middle of the bastion of Afrikanerdom. We pretty much got taught that we were right and everyone else was wrong (not just about segregation but just about everything else). The attitude was that if you don't sell us weapons or fuel fuckit, we'll make our own. Everything foreign was treated with suspicion and scorn. Even though were were a republic we still held a grudge against the Poms (and for your average narrow minded Afrikaner a Pom, Welshman, Irishman, Scotsman they were all English as far as we were concerned so fuck'em). So even though we wanted to beat the shit out of Poms in rugby, it wasn't the same prized scalp as the ABs. It was driven by hatred.

As for Australia, most of us knew preciously little about Aussies other than they spoke funny, wore funny hats and the whole place was a desert. We knew of XXXX beer and Kangaroos. That's it.

So what I am getting at we really didn't give much of a shit about anyone else.

Except the All Blacks.

The physicality of their game was probably one of the reasons and strangely there was some sort of affinity for the big farmers from an island afar. We had this view of them as hard men that explored and conquered a far away hostile land. That was something we could (rightly or wrongly) hang a hat on.

My three most prized possessions as a youngster in the 70's were:
- An All Black Rugby ball (which some fuck stole and I cried for a week)
- A long play record that documented the last official tour to SA in the 70's (in Afrikaans). The final bit was the sound of a plane taking off overlayed with the Haka. Eventually I had played this bit some many times that it was stuffed.
- A journal of AB vs SA rivalry going back to the first test match played between the two countries.

When we were taught mauling at school our coaches more often than not would talk about how the All Blacks did it. Rucking was spoke of as something that you wanted to do as well as the ABs.

We had a muddy batch at the end of one of our rugby fields at school. It was called New Zealand and if we screwed up in practice we had to go and scrum in it until we were all covered in mud.

I am sure that I am not alone in this experience.

(Getting sick as hell of losing to the bastards these days I have to say :)

I don't think there is much of a rivalry with Aus. Most SA fans don't like Australia. They can't really tell you why. They might mumble something about Shane Warne but not much more.

Your average Aussie fan sees these Saffers and dumb, thuggish lumps of Afrikaner meat who play the game all wrong. All this kicking and driving isn't real rugby.

Mild disdain is how I would describe it :)

Well, if that's all the thanks we get for McBride's Brigade, djou ma, Dutchman, en gee my nog die vuurtjies, ons gaan plaas toe...
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
By geez, I with Paarl and Baldric here, hearts pumping already for Sat, got some of wife's family over from NZ, who fortunately know the rules, ABs vs Boks, we'll leave socialising etc to a less important time!!
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-AK (Andrew Kellaway)-ash3/1237958_10151934785756062_99687746_n.jpg
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Good to see the Bokke still mix with the locals.
http://www.voxy.co.nz/national/springboks-visit-coromandel/5/167916
Springboks visit the Coromandel
HomeNational

Contributor:
Fuseworks Media

Tuesday, 17 September, 2013 - 15:20
The unveiling of the only intact set of rifles gifted to a New Zealand town after the South African Boer War brought some very special guests to Thames on Thursday - and the visitors made a lasting impression on those they met.
Springbok players - brothers Jannie and Bismarck Du Plessis - and Ruan Pienaar spent most of Thursday in Thames on an unofficial visit that included Thames High School, The Treasury, Thames-Coromandel District Council and the Thames Rugby Club.
The visit was facilitated via Johan Volsteedt, the former Head Master of all three men and a man who devoted his life to their own high school, Grey College in South Africa. The players visited not as Springboks but as Old Grey College Boys whose ancestors were affected by the Boer War. The visit gave them a rare opportunity to see with their own eyes Boer rifles that bear their surnames and are now housed at The Treasury in Thames.
These 15 rifles were among 200 captured Boer rifles that were gifted to New Zealand from South Africa and were individually numbered. They came with the inscription SAT - South African Trophy - and Thames received the first 15 rifles.
Thames is now the only place in New Zealand to have an intact and complete collection, unveiled for the Springbok visitors at The Treasury in Queen Street, Thames.
All three players left a lasting impression on all of the locals they met, including Thames High School students who spent an hour asking probing questions from how much the men bench press - "you can't bench press your heart" replied Ruan - to thoughts on brotherhood rivalry.
The players were led onto Thames High with a powhiri, a traditional Maori welcome, and this was followed by a thunderous haka by the Thames High School First XV. The Springbok players acknowledged the link between their former high school Grey College and Thames High School, which were both established by Former Governor Sir George Grey.
Among the high school audience was the music teacher who taught Jannie at Grey College. The pair caught up one-to-one later in the staffroom, where all three players relaxed and mingled with head students, teachers and TCDC staff who helped facilitate the visit.
When speaking to the gathered high school students, Jannie said he enjoyed spending his free day in Thames: "In the real part of New Zealand". He talked about the legacy left by Sir George Grey, who ensured that schools were built in poorer townships because he wanted a better future for youngsters.
"Sometimes we as humans think what we are so important but it's actually what you leave behind. It's the difference you make in other peoples' lives...and if that can stay around for generations then you accomplish something a lot bigger than yourself.
"I just want to say kia ora," Jannie continued, before revealing his slight uncertainty over the Maori welcome and haka. "The Maori greeting sometimes defies logic, but if it's a greeting we accept it, and if it's a challenge, we accept it," he said.
Grey College is the third oldest school in South Africa. Jannie explained that Sir George Grey started it because many of the local children couldn't read or write and their parents taught them out of the old Dutch bible. He donated a sum of money to start a school and did the same for Port Elizabeth in South Africa, as well as other schools in New Zealand.
"At the end of the day we're here because of a guy who had a vision to invest in people and their futures and I think that's massive. If you invest in something that's bigger than yourself - that really is a challenge worth accomplishing in life."
Students relished the chance to ask questions of the players, including about Jannie and Bismarck's brotherhood rivalry.
"When we were younger the rivalry almost bordered on something sinister because you measure yourself against your brother and always want to be better. And then dad got sick, he got Parkinson's Disease and we realised we have only got each other and if there was rivalry between us, one would pull the other down. Instead of having rivalry we tried to support each other. I think there's still rivalry but if you can put everything into perspective, that's really important."
New Zealand South African Chris Williams, a staff member at TCDC, had spent the morning with the players and agreed it was 'a dream come true' to meet them face to face. He acknowledged Jannie's qualification as a doctor, his brother Bismarck's job as an investment broker and their collective roles as farmers on large blocks, before asking them how they managed these commitments alongside elite international sport?
"Sometimes you have to sacrifice your own time, your family time, your friends, and going on holiday or staying at home. But with anything you do in life when you really want to achieve something, you make a sacrifice of yourself to achieve that," said Bismarck. "How we manage it is also with very expensive phone calls to home."
Later on at The Treasury building in Thames, the three players were absorbed by reading the story of the historic rifles, and handled them with awe. "It's nice to see them preserved, it's a little bit surreal," said Ruan. "I can't say that they are part of my family but I think the fact that there's a name on it, that this man slept alone and he didn't know whether he would make it...if you think about it, it makes it pretty special."
Jannie told those gathered at The Treasury that it was wonderful to spend time in the real part of New Zealand: "To experience it in its pure form is refreshing and really nice."
Regarding the rifles, he added: "It's wonderful that somebody took time to preserve what's rightfully been called a treasure. Unfortunately in our country...we just go forward and try to forget the past. Sometimes it's nice to sit and reflect and see where you are from. We are as Afrikaanz as you can get, we couldn't speak English until we got to High School and there's definitely a connection. The fact that my grandfather, whether he was right or wrong, he fought…it puts it in a special place in your heart. Thank you very much for having us, it's been a wonderful day."
The players jokingly ended the visit with the words: "Let the war begin on Saturday. Hopefully the marksmen in green and gold will be better than the marksmen in black and white."
South Africa lost 29-15 to New Zealand in the game.
 

Gorman

Frank Row (1)
Rugby is clearly the Number 1 sport in NZ. The country goes into mourning when the AIG's lose a test.

Rugby is clearly the No 1 sport on a regional and possible cultural basis in SA.

From the outside it appears that it is No 1 with the Afrikaner speaker.

Is it as popular with the English speakers on the coastal fringes?

From my limited knowledge of Saffer land, Skin colour is not a divisive issue. Tribal and cultural affiliation is divisive amoung people of the same (ish) skin colour.

Is there any particular tribal group where Rugby is a Religion?

What about the so called Coloureds, the former sub-continental labourers, and the mixed interracials?


Soccer is seen as a well supported Non-white sport? is the support for that divided simply on skin colour or is it similarly divided on a tribal/geographic basis.

The more I learn about Saffer land, the more I realise what a complex and fascinating country/culture it really is.


Thanks guys for this wonderful post. I was up all night reading some of your stories. I am a born and raised Afrikaner thus I too grew up with this rivalry. From a early age I was told stories of Ellis Park reaching crowds of nearly 100k when the all blacks would tour. I was told of great Springbok victories and less so of there defeats. I was told of these demi-gods who could run anybody of there feet and run at the speed of lighting. Thus I grew up idolizing that green and gold jersey and the players who wore them.

I see that this forum was active some time ago , so I hope my contribution wont go unnoticed. As for your questions Hugh Jarse, Rugby is still probably the number one sport in SA, Yet it it still culturally divided. The black population grew up seeing rugby as the sport of the oppressor, which was true. It is only now that the black population is warming up to the game. As for the Indians in South Africa they are not that into the game, they would much rather watch cricket. However under the white population rugby is still going strong. The Afrikaans people still follow it as passionately whilst the English people are kind of divided between cricket , rugby and soccer, But nevertheless some of the English Schools are still some of the best in the country when it comes to rugby.

As for geographical support I believe that you will find the biggest rugby and springbok fans out of the city and on there farms. It is a little known fact that Bethlehem, Free State with a population of about 20k people have produced the most springboks in the whole country, This was the birth place of springboks like the du Plessis brothers aswell as Frans Steyn to name a few.

The more I read comments from the kiwi's on this forum the more I realized how similar our cultures are. There is this downright need to beat each other, You could even say its a matter of national pride over here. If we don't win the AB's our season wasn't a successful one. We could thrash everybody (like 2013) but its not as sweet as a victory over the AB's. We also see the kiwi's as down to earth humble players much like ourselves where the Aussies are a bit to flashy and cocky at some times. I think to understand our Saffer's psyche is how we approach the game. As a former front rower myself I was quickly told that physical dominance is everything in rugby. It was a simple rule: If the forwards dominate , the backs will win you the game. This style of rugby directly contradicts the NZ type of play and that's what makes our games so exciting.

What captivates me every time about the rivalry is the up most respect these players have for each other, there are countless examples like coach Graham Henry congratulating the boks in there change rooms away from the media on there first win at Dunedin in 2008. Or when the haka was on the chopping block the South African Rugby Union was the first one to voice its destain (Same cant be said of your Tasmanian brothers though). I still get a lump in my throat when watching that haka , and I always picture myself facing it. I think the proudest moment for a springbok is putting on the jersey for the first time, but that is closely followed by facing the haka.

Here is a eye-opening documentary about just how much the springbok all black rivalry means to South Africa and New Zealand . This rivalry is not only the biggest in rugby ,I would go out on limb and say its the biggest sporting rivalry in the world .

Part 1 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJtJQekzPKY
Part 2 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trxM2AXL3ms
Part 3 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTGmIIfjUR4
Part 4 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ni-erwdM3WA
Part 5 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wtxXSoqGuY

Final thought: When the New Zealand Herlad journalist Andrew Austin was asked to comment on the rivalry between the All blacks and Wallabies he said : "The old enemy wears green and gold not just gold"
 

qwerty51

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Here is a eye-opening documentary about just how much the springbok all black rivalry means to South Africa and New Zealand . This rivalry is not only the biggest in rugby ,I would go out on limb and say its the biggest sporting rivalry in the world.

Really it doesn't even go close, wouldn't make a top 10 global list.

I raise you an Ashes series.
 
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