The Tom Carter incident

[Inside Shoulder]

This thread's gone all silly; I don't think one participant's changed his, or her, mind about Carter. Surely that's reason enough to bury it.

Could one of the mods please close this thread. And the other one.

You're wrong: I'm in 2 minds about him and I keep changing from one to the other.
Bruce has your Sydney Uni connection got anything to do with your regard for TC?
This reminds me a bit of Peter Hewit - IMO he was not up to test play (from memory he lacked a right foot kick of any quality and had a few other shortcomings) but there was a time when he should have been picked irrespective of whether the powers that be thought he would make it at that level as a reward for being, at that time, the best in his position.
From what I saw (and still remember) of Pat Howard, and even Kafe, Carter is in the same class as them and he's probably got a bit more to him than Kafe.
A lot worse have played a lot of tests for OZ.
If a person is the best at a given time he should be picked instead of picking blokes who might ultimately be better: its not like you can ever be 100% sure about how people step up. I gather he never played Oz Schools but did play NSW 1s (I stand tio be corrected) - looks like his cards have been marked for a long time.

 

[Cutter]

From what I saw (and still remember) of Pat Howard, and even Kafe, Carter is in the same class as them and he's probably got a bit more to him than Kafe.
A lot worse have played a lot of tests for OZ.

I've stayed out of this, but you're doing both those guys a huge disservice. They were more rounded players than Carter. Howard won the European player of the year. Kafer was a gifted playmaker and tactician who would have played more tests but for injury and Tim Horan.

Carter plays a role for NSW. He's great at it but Deans believes Carter isn't suited to international rugby. I agree for the reasons articulated by Austin. Contrast with Kafer/Howard's era when the 12 jumper was dominated by Horan, Carter's era has been dominated by a revolving door at 12.

As far as the sledging etc goes, its fair enough if you're able to back it up. Every good backrower will have told the opposing 10 that he'd better get used to being hit (with or without the ball). It sometimes works. With Carter, it clearly works and he's doing a job for his team in that respect.

It's a different story when QC (Quade Cooper) goes out of his way to push a prone McCaw when Cooper wasn't involved in the ruck. That was unnecessary, cheap and childish. I hope Cooper has learned his lesson now.

 

[Bruce Ross]

Bruce has your Sydney Uni connection got anything to do with your regard for TC?

Undoubtedly, IS, it's because of that link that I know so much about him. I first talked to him when he was in Year 12 and have followed his career closely since then. If he were playing for another club that wouldn't be the case.

Since Tom joined the Waratahs in I think 2005 there would have been well over 50 other Sydney Uni players involved in professional rugby. In almost every case I haven't spent time campaigning on their behalf. One of my failings which dates back as long as I can remember is a sense of outrage when I perceive someone isn't getting a fair go. Increasingly over the years, that has been added to by a willingness to publicly stick up for people who are being picked on. I cop a lot of heat because of it but I'm prepared to wear that.

 

[philsale]

Okay, so I think it is time to close this up.

Tom Carter is good Super Rugby player. His on-field personality is fairly repellent, but not to the point that he does something worthy of being cited, which can see him unsettle the opposition (as well as anyone who is not a Waratah supporter). He has apparently always been a fairly annoying kid, and got up peoples' noses all through school, etc. However, he knows when to stop...

...needless to say this annoys me even more.

Byrnes - He had his hand on Carter's face, that was fairly clear. I wish he hadn't done that. There was no overt gouge that I could see from my vantage point, but if someone makes some noise about it, you are going to be stung. Yes, I agree Schalk did a lot worse last year, but it wasn't brought up by anyone on-field, so that was where it ended.

Are we really going to get anything else out of this thread, or are people just having a bad day? I propose a 'Have a whine about Tom Carter' thread where people can post when they are having a stinker, where messages self-destruct after 10 minutes. A TC shaped stress-ball, essentially.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Since Tom joined the Waratahs in I think 2005 there would have been well over 50 other Sydney Uni players involved in professional rugby. In almost every case I haven't spent time campaigning on their behalf. One of my failings which dates back as long as I can remember is a sense of outrage when I perceive someone isn't getting a fair go. Increasingly over the years, that has been added to by a willingness to publicly stick up for people who are being picked on. I cop a lot of heat because of it but I'm prepared to wear that.

You didnt have to point out the number of UNi s15 players
I think we come form the same position on him then.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Okay, so I think it is time to close this up.

I struggle to fathom the depth of the arrogance that suggests when you think a thread is over its over.

They were more rounded players than Carter. Howard won the European player of the year. Kafer was a gifted playmaker and tactician who would have played more tests but for injury and Tim Horan.

Cutter,

Howard was out of his depth in tests and I have no clear recollection of Kafer doing anything: both were far too slow is my abiding memory. Kafe is a great thinker on the game: the rugby Club could just be devoted to his analysis. Howard seems similar.

but Deans believes Carter isn't suited to international rugby

Belief is not a sound basis for anything and Deans has been wrong on many fronts since he took over. Nothing is lost by giving him his chance. They lost to Samoa anyway - Carter could have been the scapegoat...but he might have been the saviour.

Carter's era has been dominated by a revolving door at 12

Precisely - they have been wrong more times than they have been right in picking the next 12 - that kind of undermines any legitimacy Deans "belief" may have!

 

[Langthorne]

I sometimes wonder how much of Tom Carter's playing his detractors actually watch. He has developed quite a lot over the years. He started off big and reliable, especially in terms of his defence, but as well as getting physically stronger, he seems to have developed his ball playing and, dare I say it, his pace.
In this last match against the Rebels he made some very good passes and on at least 3 occassions that I recall looked pretty quick: for his first try he was like a runaway train, in the second half he snuffed out an almost half break by O'Connor (who is no slouch, and was looking like he was through on the outside), and quite a few times he chased a kick and was there very quickly.
Is he worth two times this person or the other? I don't really know, but he is a valuable player for the Waratahs.

 

[fatprop]

I find it strange that some think perceived football ability gives someone the right sledge and stir, whilst less talented player should just shut up - to me that is just silly

On Carter's ability. He ain't a first choice test player, he doesn't have that extra special bit. But if he had the opportunity you know what you would get from him, enthusiasm, effort and consistency - because he puts in at his level every week.

Link described "him" (his type) in an old ruggamatrix episode as one of those types of units who will give near their best every game and that a team needs bankable players like that as well as the Coopers & Beales to add that spark. I would consider the Faaingas twins and Lachie Turner in the same mould as Carter as well. They all work hard on the game within their limitations and put out at the best of their ability every time.

On sledging/being a pest, it has always been an important part of rugby. Some do it by talking and chat, others do it by niggle. It is a perfectly valid way of getting opposition players to start focusing on the pest and not on their role.

 

[cyclopath]

Just a comment from the gallery Cyclopath

You're pretty quick to stir the slop bucket yourself

Calling people's comments "idiotic" and telling them they are "beyond hope" is about as inflammatory as it gets

Walk the talk

I'll take it under advisement from the man, who posted his little video yesterday which lasted 5 minutes before deletion, about what constitutes inflammatory.

 

[Cutter]

Howard was out of his depth in tests and I have no clear recollection of Kafer doing anything: both were far too slow is my abiding memory. Kafe is a great thinker on the game: the rugby Club could just be devoted to his analysis. Howard seems similar.

Howard played 20 odd tests for the Wallabies. Kafer around 10. Howard was out of his depth when he made his debut as a 20 year old playing at 10. He was better in 96/97 and started quite a few of those tests but didn't necessarily dominate. Not many do at international level. He also won the premiership with Leicester (as well as the S12 with the Brumbies I think?). Not many Australians have done that.

Kafer should have played more tests but broke his ankle warming up/in training before his debut. He played 10 in a winning Bledisloe at Homebush in front of 110,000 people. He was an extremely talented player. Kafer won the Super 12 and the Heinekin Cup. Not many do that either.

Perhaps your memory doesn't serve you well.

Belief is not a sound basis for anything and Deans has been wrong on many fronts since he took over. Nothing is lost by giving him his chance. They lost to Samoa anyway - Carter could have been the scapegoat...but he might have been the saviour.

Perhaps, but it is all that is required when you are the coach.

Precisely - they have been wrong more times than they have been right in picking the next 12 - that kind of undermines any legitimacy Deans "belief" may have!

The point I was making here is that because of the quality of midfielders and their long term consistency during the periods when Howard and Kafer were picked, it was much harder to get a game at 10/12 than it has been for the last few years.

Conversely, the quality of 10/12 candidates over the last few years is not necessarily at an all time high and therefore it should, theoretically, be easier to get a game.

I obviously don't make my posts clear enough.

 

[Cutter]

I find it strange that some think perceived football ability gives someone the right sledge and stir, whilst less talented player should just shut up - to me that is just silly

Sledging is of no effect if you can't back it up. Think in a cricket context - do you reckon Bryce McGain sledged much when he made his test debut?

 

[waratahjesus]

I always get really shocked when people measure getting picked for the Wallabies with being a good player.

Wallaby selection isn't stat, win, lose or anything in between based, it's always going to come down to personnal preference of the selection panel.

Tom Carter doesn't play international rugby, he plays supeRugby, he doe. Very fine job of it and I base this on the fact he achieves fir the team he is in. He doenst need to achieve for anyone else. Just for his teammates who all rate him really highly.

If he never gets selected for higher honors, does a diminish what he dies, hell no.

 

[fatprop]

Sledging is of no effect if you can't back it up. Think in a cricket context - do you reckon Bryce McGain sledged much when he made his test debut?

Then what Carter does would have no effect because he can't back it up.

OK .. .. ..

but it does, both positive and negative effects like most things

 

[Cutter]

I thought I said Carter could back it up. He's a good S15 player.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Howard played 20 odd tests for the Wallabies. Kafer around 10. Howard was out of his depth when he made his debut as a 20 year old playing at 10. He was better in 96/97 and started quite a few of those tests but didn't necessarily dominate. Not many do at international level. He also won the premiership with Leicester (as well as the S12 with the Brumbies I think?). Not many Australians have done that.

Kafer should have played more tests but broke his ankle warming up/in training before his debut. He played 10 in a winning Bledisloe at Homebush in front of 110,000 people. He was an extremely talented player. Kafer won the Super 12 and the Heinekin Cup. Not many do that either.

Perhaps your memory doesn't serve you well.



Perhaps, but it is all that is required when you are the coach.




The point I was making here is that because of the quality of midfielders and their long term consistency during the periods when Howard and Kafer were picked, it was much harder to get a game at 10/12 than it has been for the last few years.

Conversely, the quality of 10/12 candidates over the last few years is not necessarily at an all time high and therefore it should, theoretically, be easier to get a game.

I obviously don't make my posts clear enough.

This is just a rehash of your first effort: i saw them play and I dont think they were necessarily a cut above.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I always get really shocked when people measure getting picked for the Wallabies with being a good player.

Wallaby selection isn't stat, win, lose or anything in between based, it's always going to come down to personnal preference of the selection panel.

Tom Carter doesn't play international rugby, he plays supeRugby, he doe. Very fine job of it and I base this on the fact he achieves fir the team he is in. He doenst need to achieve for anyone else. Just for his teammates who all rate him really highly.

If he never gets selected for higher honors, does a diminish what he dies, hell no.

No but it is a tragedy when the preconceptions of one person or a group of people determine that he will never play a test: the suggestion that Deans beliefs trump his woeful selection track record is laughable.

They were prepared to give Gitts one last chance knowing he would probably hang himself

 

[daz]

The moment TC walked onto AAMI park last Friday night to start his warm-ups with the team, he was vocal. He was constantly shouting encouragement, patting bums and ruffling hair.

The second the whistle blew, he was in the faces of the Rebels players. Non-stop gobby. The reason the Rebels got a bit niggly in a physical way was singularly due to the fact that TC was annoying the living shit out of them. So, they forgot to stay focused and started playing the game the way TC wanted them to.

Watch the replay; every time a Rebs player grabbed TC's collar and gave him a spray, he laughed like a loon. He was fucking DELIGHTED he had got under their skin. He went hard at the breakdown and could not wait to get the ball so he could collide at speedwith the opposition.

And he scored 2 tries. One of which I thought was a set up as AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) could have and should have gone in himself. He didn't. He gave a soft try to TC.

And the reaction from TC's team-mates? They swamped him with hugs and high fives.

Say what you want about TC, and I think he is a bit of a prat, but I saw nothing at the game Friday night which showed TC was held in little regard by both the opposition and his team.

Quite the opposite. The reality is that sometimes (against the Reds) he is going to look like a serial pest who is also stupid. Sometimes (against the Rebels) he is going to look like a serial pest who can back it up.

I'm no TC fan, really, but you just gotta respect a bloke who clearly plays the game his way, and has the love of his team-mates while doing it.

 

[mark_s]

Thats probably the sanest post in this whole thread Daz.

 

[philsale]

The second the whistle blew, he was in the faces of the Rebels players. Non-stop gobby. The reason the Rebels got a bit niggly in a physical way was singularly due to the fact that TC was annoying the living shit out of them. So, they forgot to stay focused and started playing the game the way TC wanted them to.

Well said, daz.

Looking forward to hearing him on the podslam, even if he does drive me mad...

 

[HKTiger]

Just an adjunct to Daz above. TC may be sledger and a serial pest but that does not make him a liar. I don't get, in the context of the Byrnes incident, how being a sledger makes TC a potential fibber about fingers around his upper face (clear on video) and a potential eye-gouge.

I sledge with the best of them. Doesn't make me untruthful. Nor does it provide some license for someone to eye-gouge me.