The Wallaby Reputation

[Scarfman]

Look, I'm just amazed that anyone is standing by the Wallabies after a record loss to England.

My explanation is that we have the cattle but it's currently badly coached. But I see that writing that over and over isn't going to help anyone so I'll give it a rest.

Can I get an AGREE?

 

[Gnostic]

Do you really expect me to disagree with a statement like that Scarfie.

I do recall a Sack Deans? thread that somebody locked after a test against Fiji I think it was. I think I have been pretty consistent on my points, and the team and coaches haven't given me any reason to change unfortunately.

 

[barbarian]

I disagree Gnostic, although we may have a different definition of 'borderline fans'. After the Honkers game the guys on the Back Page on FoxSports (Andrew Moore, Billy Birmingham, Paul Kent, Mike Gibson) were raving about how well the Wallabies are playing, and made specific reference to the style in which we are now playing. The England game won't help that but I think the care factor is a bit lower when the game is at 3am on the other side of the world. They are hardened leaguies, but a Bledisloe means something to them, and it got top billing that night. Same with Sam Kekovich and Russ Barwick on PTI on ESPN.

I also think this idea of the 'complete game' is nonsense. I want you to name the last time the Wallabies played a 'complete game'. What is this Nirvana we are trying to achieve, that had you waching the games on three and four occassions. For the life of me I can't think of anything much since 2003. 49-0 against the Boks springs to mind, but they played very ordinary rugby that night. I think you might have this glorified image of the Wallabies in mind, when in reality this consistency and quality has been a problem for many years. I agree it can be frustrating, but I am far more likely to watch a test now than I was when John Connolly was coaching (when was the last time we used the word 'kickfest' here? It was all the rage in 2005). So are most of my friends.

 

[Gnostic]

Kickfest - last year to dicribe most of the test Rugby. More due to the intepretations.

As for the Complete game I am looking for a balance between forwards and backs in hwta ever style you want. The Tahs play a complete game in their style (currently makes me want to pull my own teeth out but when they are on song with it, it is good to watch.

The Reds a totally different approach but it is still complete.

As for a complete Wallabies game, there were a few in the Connolly era that gave cause for hope. Yes they eventually capitulated but they had structure and with the individuals such as Beale now, and Cooper that structure would have shone.

My borderline fans are nothing like the fools from Fox. Gibson et al cannot be more anti-rugby 99% of the time. No these are people introduced to the game via the RWC 2003 and S12/14. Over the last two years they have been drifting away and basically have found other things to do.

 

[RedsHappy]

Yep, Dressage is always the benchmark I use when discussing the status of rugby with anyone.
You keep making the same point over & over. Do you think RD will be signed to another 4 years without a review? If so you are the only one.
If you are suggesting he be sacked, then maybe you should offer an alternative, in the timeframe you are suggesting.

Mate, if I say 'the same things over and over again', I can assure you that I shall not ever apologise for same when:

(a) the same problems, weaknesses, losses, poor outcomes (overall) etc, etc, keep happening over and over again in these Wallabies and mostly remain untouched and unfixed;

(b) the same quite incredible and shallow excuses, and explanations, and cop-outs, and ARU fairy flossies are offered over and over again for these deficiencies, typically blaming players rather than leadership with its required accountability and responsibility (and, btw, very high $ pay)

Repetition is not in itself inappropriate if its origins are repetitive, and those origins are dangerous, and expensive (to the rugby code cause).

 

[barbarian]

You can't say that the kickfests were due to 'law interpretations' but attribute our 'structure' to coaching and players. I think the current law interpretations have a lot to do with the 'fast and loose' style all of the top sides are playing. The Connolly-esque style certainly wouldn't work as well.

And the 'fools from Fox' may be Leaguies but they are a very good barometer of how the middle of the road sports fan is feeling about the state of things. If they are raving about the Wallabies then it can only be a good thing.

 

[waratahjesus]

so, asking the question for the 500th time.

would you take undefeated wallabies kicking the ball away and playing conservative.

or loser wallabies (or qld) if you like?

 

[cyclopath]

Look, I'm just amazed that anyone is standing by the Wallabies after a record loss to England.

My explanation is that we have the cattle but it's currently badly coached. But I see that writing that over and over isn't going to help anyone so I'll give it a rest.

Can I get an AGREE?

In would give you a partial agree, if any of you and your co-signatories would concede that many players just did not acquit themselves well last night, and many other times this past few years.
There is no possible detente in this argument, when one side seemingly puts it all down to coaching, and the other feels the players should take some of the blame (yet have their argument dismissed and themselves branded as Deans Apologists in the process), as well as the coaches.
Futile, no?

 

[Gnostic]

You can't say that the kickfests were due to 'law interpretations' but attribute our 'structure' to coaching and players. I think the current law interpretations have a lot to do with the 'fast and loose' style all of the top sides are playing. The Connolly-esque style certainly wouldn't work as well.

And the 'fools from Fox' may be Leaguies but they are a very good barometer of how the middle of the road sports fan is feeling about the state of things. If they are raving about the Wallabies then it can only be a good thing.

Gibson et al are not middle of the road. They are derisive of all sports except AFL and League except for their plays of the day type rubbish or when they can crawl to a guest. A good barometer they are not.

You miss my meaning by a huge margin, you seem to think I am looking for a certain game plan, I am not - its horses for courses. It doesn't matter what style you wish to play. By a complete game I mean it starts with the game plan, then selection, then conditioning, then skills & execution and finally bench usage.

The best recent example of the complete game was the Bok last year in the 3N. Under the rule interpretations they established a good (if limited) game plan, selected to play it and executed perfectly. The issue for them came when they lost a couple of key players and the replacements did not fill the role required. They lost the complete game because without those first choice units they were unable to maintain it and were also unable to form a true plan B.

What have the Wallabies shown. Individual brilliance and three backline moves. Hardly qualifies for a complete game. The Wallabies last year were kickfests because they didn't execute the kicks they did with any real intent or tactics.

 

[barbarian]

You make good points in your middle two paragraphs Gnostic, and I am inclined to agree with most of them. I still think the Wallabies have always struggled with the concept of the 'complete game' as you define it.

However we will have to agree to disagree about Gibson and co. They can be down on Union at times but overall I think they are genuine sports fans, and I ejoy watching them. You obviously see that differently.

The last paragraph annoys me most though. You seriously think all we have shown this year is individual brilliance and three backline moves? That is a seriously negative way to view things. You are that type of guy and I get it, but some of us are more positive and I don't think you should be down on us because we are more optimistic in the way we want to watch and analyse the game. I do think there are issues with Deans don't get me wrong. But I like to think we have shown far more than individual brilliance and a few backline moves this year.

 

[Gnostic]

You make good points in your middle two paragraphs Gnostic, and I am inclined to agree with most of them. I still think the Wallabies have always struggled with the concept of the 'complete game' as you define it.

However we will have to agree to disagree about Gibson and co. They can be down on Union at times but overall I think they are genuine sports fans, and I ejoy watching them. You obviously see that differently.

The last paragraph annoys me most though. You seriously think all we have shown this year is individual brilliance and three backline moves? That is a seriously negative way to view things. You are that type of guy and I get it, but some of us are more positive and I don't think you should be down on us because we are more optimistic in the way we want to watch and analyse the game. I do think there are issues with Deans don't get me wrong. But I like to think we have shown far more than individual brilliance and a few backline moves this year.

Contrary to popular belief I am not a pessimist. In fact the opposite. I am however very frustrated by the problems that you allude to and the fact that I amoung others identified them at the start of last year (even though I wasn't here then others will atest that I have been pointing out a few things for a while now (in case you hadn't noticed).

If I was a pessimist how would I have survived as a Stalwart Tahs fan for 30 odd years.

I think from your post you understand my concept of the total game, perhaps others have also mistaken my intent.

 

[lincoln]

1. England dominated and Joubert gave them the benefit of the doubt, which is appropriate with a dominant side.
2. Passion - what happened to the love of playing for Australia (ie 2003 SF v the Darkness)
3. We have the talent - let's get behind them and grind towards 2011.

Somewhat less than 994 words but KISS

 

[The_Brown_Hornet]

so, asking the question for the 500th time.

would you take undefeated wallabies kicking the ball away and playing conservative.

or loser wallabies (or qld) if you like?

Absolutely not, I'd rather chew my own arm off than watch that kind of rugby week in week out. If we ever go against our natural instincts and history and start playing a totally conservative game, I'll stop watching them altogether. In fact, I can remember a non-stop kick-snore fest against the Boks (2006 from memory) whereupon I turned to a mate and said: "I hope we lose, this is shit". Only time I've ever said that.

 

[macg101]

???didn't you guys just beat New Zealand...

If Ireland bet New Zealand the following would happen...

1. There would be a national day off.
2. The rugby union would be disbanded, it can get no better.
3. Irish Rugby websites would replace our current head to head record with NZ with a recent time 100% win rate against the All Blacks, the previous tests would be ignored.

I know losing to England is probably the worst feeling in the world, and I as an Irishman know too many days of misery against them but listen, one things for sure the Australian team will always be top 3 in the world in most of the rugby worlds view.

 

[Gagger]

We got sucker-punched by England and apparently the sky's going to fall in.

Forget that we're the only team to beat NZ this year (and lost by 1 point in another test).

Forget that we belted the World Champs in Brizzy, won for the first time on 40+ years on the Veldt (and went close to doing it twice).

Forget that we've risen back to 2nd in the world

Forget that we did all that missing half of our first choice pack.

Forget that the rest of the world now thinks we have the best attacking back-line and that it's populated by guys in their early 20s. Two of whom stepped up to clinch those tight tests, when many had bagged those players and never thought they should have been playing test rugby.

Nope, we have a loss to a team ranked lower than us (forget that there is only one ranked above) on penalties away from home and it's just proof of how crap we are apparently

Well done for fighting the fight Baabaa, it's a never ending battle by the looks. Just because it's easier to make noise as a nay-sayer - any loss or below par performance in any area is a proof of the worst - doesn't make that noise right.

 

[Langthorne]

There have been some very good points made all round on this thread, much that I agree with.

A few more or less related thoughts:

It is always likely that after a defeat these kinds of threads will be busy. Of course in many ways this thread is not much about the game Vs England but about performance over a period of time. The problems we saw in that match were not new or unexpected.

Something that is true of this ongoing argument is that few people here will be swayed by the latest um, setback (and many might even resort to name calling, parody, denial, feigned disinterest....).

Overstating the problems is just as unproductive as denying or excusing them.

If their opponents are off their game, the Wallabies can beat England, New Zealand, South Africa and France from time to time. They tend not to lose to the other rugby playing nations unless the Wallabies play very badly and the others have an excellent game. So 'top 5' seems a fair description of our position.

On the match with England - of all the excuses I've heard or read, the one I like the least is "but England played well!". Oh, I'm sorry - our opponent didn't lay down and let us dance around them? they put up a fight? they executed basic skills repeatedly? they had a game plan? How unreasonable of me to think we should win a game under those unacceptable circumstances!!!!

 

[Langthorne]

We got sucker-punched by England and apparently the sky's going to fall in.

Forget that we're the only team to beat NZ this year (and lost by 1 point in another test).

Forget that we belted the World Champs in Brizzy, won for the first time on 40+ years on the Veldt (and went close to doing it twice).

Forget that we've risen back to 2nd in the world

Forget that we did all that missing half of our first choice pack.

Forget that the rest of the world now thinks we have the best attacking back-line and that it's populated by guys in their early 20s. Two of whom stepped up to clinch those tight tests, when many had bagged those players and never thought they should have been playing test rugby.

Nope, we have a loss to a team ranked lower than us (forget that there is only one ranked above) on penalties away from home and it's just proof of how crap we are apparently

Well done for fighting the fight Baabaa, it's a never ending battle by the looks. Just because it's easier to make noise as a nay-sayer - any loss or below par performance in any area is a proof of the worst - doesn't make that noise right.

So what are you saying? Job done? Good work? There is nothing whatsoever that the coach should do differently? Do you reject any suggestion to the contrary?

On the England match, what is a sucker punch? Did they do something underhanded in order to win? Was the result not a reflection of the way the two teams played? Were the penalties that you consider won the match for England not, on balance, warranted (bearing in mind that at least one of them was for a clear professional foul that likely denied a try)?

 

[vidiot]

Look, I'm just amazed that anyone is standing by the Wallabies after a record loss to England.

Kind of my job, if I'm a Wallabies supporter, I guess. Besides, it allows me to practice my excuse finding in a non-work context.

 

[Langthorne]

Kind of my job, if I'm a Wallabies supporter, I guess. Besides, it allows me to practice my excuse finding in a non-work context.

:lmao:

Absolute gold

 

[Scarfman]

We got sucker-punched by England and apparently the sky's going to fall in.

Forget that we're the only team to beat NZ this year (and lost by 1 point in another test).

Forget that we belted the World Champs in Brizzy, won for the first time on 40+ years on the Veldt (and went close to doing it twice).

Forget that we've risen back to 2nd in the world

Forget that we did all that missing half of our first choice pack.

Forget that the rest of the world now thinks we have the best attacking back-line and that it's populated by guys in their early 20s. Two of whom stepped up to clinch those tight tests, when many had bagged those players and never thought they should have been playing test rugby.

Nope, we have a loss to a team ranked lower than us (forget that there is only one ranked above) on penalties away from home and it's just proof of how crap we are apparently

Well done for fighting the fight Baabaa, it's a never ending battle by the looks. Just because it's easier to make noise as a nay-sayer - any loss or below par performance in any area is a proof of the worst - doesn't make that noise right.

Mate, I'm too busy trying to forget that we lost to England by a record margin.

Anyway, I reckon we should have a Deans vs Anti-Deans boat race at the EOYdrinks. Settle it once and for all.