Wallabies 2019 Thread

[Bobby Sands]

Naivalu has always been good in gold.

Yep but his limitations are glaring. He can’t kick for starters is just not feasible at that level.
You don’t need a sophisticated kicking game, but you need to be able to exit if necessary.

 

[KOB1987]

Naivalu has always been good in gold.

I'm a bit surprised he hasn't been more involved this season. To me it would have made more sense to have designated him as understudy to Koroibete (even if that meant he only played against Uruguay and Georgia), and kept a more open mind about Petaia, at the expense of either AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) or DHP in the RWC squad. The selectors have reasons no doubt but it's a bit of a head scratcher.

 

[KOB1987]

There is no death of dual wingers. Every country in the world uses them.

This notion of strike winger has been made up on this forum.

We just don’t have two Koriobetes.

No, but it's definitely a concept more pertinent to the Wallabies than it is for other nations at the moment, due to a lack of depth in genuine, hard running, elusive, fast as fuck wingers.

Perhaps the term did originate in league, but the concept certainly isn't unique to readers of this forum.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/08/27/spoon-to-silverware-eels-confident-they-can-buck-84-year-hoodoo/

"While Nathan Brown is out suspended for the next two weeks, strike winger Blake Ferguson returns for his first game since mid-July after fears he could suffer kidney failure out of a surgical infection."

 

[Bobby Sands]

No, but it's definitely a concept more pertinent to the Wallabies than it is for other nations at the moment, due to a lack of depth in genuine, hard running, elusive, fast as fuck wingers.

Perhaps the term did originate in league, but the concept certainly isn't unique to readers of this forum.

https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/08/27/spoon-to-silverware-eels-confident-they-can-buck-84-year-hoodoo/

"While Nathan Brown is out suspended for the next two weeks, strike winger Blake Ferguson returns for his first game since mid-July after fears he could suffer kidney failure out of a surgical infection."

Of course strike wingers is a thing.

My point is that having one as opposed to two is not a thing.

My issue was more with the “non-strike” winger.

 

[KOB1987]

Of course strike wingers is a thing.

My point is that having one as opposed to two is not a thing.

My issue was more with the “non-strike” winger.

Well that's not really what you said:

There is no death of dual wingers. Every country in the world uses them.

This notion of strike winger has been made up on this forum.

We just don’t have two Koriobetes.

Anyway, we aren't really in disagreement about the mechanics of it, just that it's become a bit of a Wallabies thing.

Killing a bit of time so I've gone back to 2000 and looked at the make-up of our successful back 3 v NZL, SAF and ENG (I've only typed them out if they are new). Identify the ones that have two actual proper wingers and a world class fullback. I think the latter is essential if you are going to play two specialist wingers:

Year: 11, 14, 15

2000: Roff, Mortlock, Latham
2001: Roff, Walker, Burke
2001: Roff, Latham, Burke
2002: Mortlock, Tune, Latham
2003: Tuqiri, Sailor, Latham
2003: Tuqiri, Sailor, Rogers
2004: Tuqiri, Rathbone, Roff
2004: Tuqiri, Rathbone, Latham
2006: Tuqiri, Gerrard, Latham
2007: Tuqiri, Ashley-Cooper, Huxley
2007: Gerrard, Ashley-Cooper, Huxley
2008: Tuqiri, Hynes, Ashley-Cooper
2008: Tuqiri, Hynes, Mitchell
2008: Mitchell, Hynes, Ashley-Cooper
2009: Mitchell, Turner, O’Connor
2010: Mitchell, Ioane, O’Connor
2010: Mitchell, O’Connor, Ashley-Cooper
2010: Mitchell, O’Connor, Beale
2011: Ioane, O’Connor, Beale
2011: Ioane, Ashley-Cooper, Beale
2012: Ioane, Shipperley, Beale
2012: Ioane, Cummins, Barnes
2013: Tomane, Folau, Beale
2014: Horne, Ashley-Cooper, Folau
2015: Mitchell, Ashley-Cooper, Folau
2016: Hodge, Haylett-Petty, Folau
2017: Hodge, Koroibete, Folau
2018: Koroibete, Maddocks, Haylett-Petty
2019: Koroibete, Hodge, Beale

 

[Tomikin]

When did this idea of a "strike" winger become a thing? Why would a team not expect all wingers to have "strike?"

What does the other winger do if he isn't "striking (sic)?"

My understanding is that we are just retrofitting players who are not wingers to play wing and then justifying the selection.

Does NZ subscribe to this philosophy of not having too much strike? What happens if you you have too much strike? Do you score too many tries?

You where the one calling for a 13 on the wing, one that hasn't played in 6 months or a test match and is 19 and injured again.

I think they were looking for wingers that kick as the second winger. That rules out some of the faster wingers.

 

[Adam84]

I agree with the sentiment Tomikin, but I think its still a bit early to label Petaia as simply a 13, the simple fact is it's still so early in his career that we don't really know where he will end up long term. I wouldn't say he isn't a winger simply because the Reds played him at 13, thats a reflection of the Reds depth in those positions as well as trying go get him as close to the action as possible.

 

[Derpus]

Geez look at Tuqiri's reign.

Makes our dearth of talent out wide pretty stark.

 

[Derpus]

You where the one calling for a 13 on the wing, one that hasn't played in 6 months or a test match and is 19 and injured again.

I think they were looking for wingers that kick as the second winger. That rules out some of the faster wingers.

Maddocks?

If Petaia keeps getting injured he's never going to be anything.

 

[fatprop]

Many a decent young 13 & 15 has kicked off there careers on the wing.

They are just backs, stand over there, "try" to tackle when someone comes near, pass it to someone in a better position, run at gaps & keep your hair neat are not difficult concepts

 

[formerflanker]

Killing a bit of time so I've gone back to 2000 and looked at the make-up of our successful back 3

Nice research!

I think the key to this argument and selection decisions is the concept of "the back 3".
Lots of teams at different levels of rugby employ the pendulum tactic of a winger dropping back and sweeping across towards the centre of the field, while the other winger moves up and the fullback takes that deep wing position.
Selectors are then looking for a winger who can play fullback for some of the game and pure pace isn't vital.
Finishing movements with jet shoes isn't the only selection criteria these days.

My preference would be for 2 absolute scorchers on the flanks and Matt Burke at fullback.

 

[Adam84]

If Petaia keeps getting injured he's never going to be anything.

Bloody hell he is still 19 and people are already making these kinds of calls...I know it’s RWC year, but let’s not be too dramatic

 

[Derpus]

Bloody hell he is still 19 and people are already making these kinds of calls.I know it’s RWC year, but let’s not be too dramatic

I categorically refuse to be calm and rational.

If i were, i wouldn't watch sport.

 

[Tomikin]

Nice research!

I think the key to this argument and selection decisions is the concept of "the back 3".
Lots of teams at different levels of rugby employ the pendulum tactic of a winger dropping back and sweeping across towards the centre of the field, while the other winger moves up and the fullback takes that deep wing position.
Selectors are then looking for a winger who can play fullback for some of the game and pure pace isn't vital.
Finishing movements with jet shoes isn't the only selection criteria these days.

My preference would be for 2 absolute scorchers on the flanks and Matt Burke at fullback.

Matt Burkes probably only faster then AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) these days,

 

[eastman]

There is no death of dual wingers. Every country in the world uses them.

This notion of strike winger has been made up on this forum.

We just don’t have two Koriobetes.

I don’t think we want two Koribetes either to be honest- he has plenty of limitations himself. I think Maddocks could probably provide another strong option on the wing if he was to improve his defence.

 

[Adam84]

I don’t think we want two Koribetes either to be honest- he has plenty of limitations himself. I think Maddocks could probably provide another strong option on the wing if he was to improve his defence.

Maddocks is a talented young player, but he lacks skills elsewhere in his game like competing and defending at the ruck, he seems really unsure of how to position himself and has been pushed off by counterattacks by players smaller than him. He might be a back, but backs still need to be able to secure their own ball at a ruck.

 

[Lindommer]

Surely that lack of rucking technique can be fixed by good coaching on the training paddock. If the current Rebels forwards coach hasn't fixed it maybe a different coach at the Wallabies can. Maddocks has much to offer elsewhere in his game.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Well that's not really what you said:

Anyway, we aren't really in disagreement about the mechanics of it, just that it's become a bit of a Wallabies thing.

Killing a bit of time so I've gone back to 2000 and looked at the make-up of our successful back 3 v NZL, SAF and ENG (I've only typed them out if they are new). Identify the ones that have two actual proper wingers and a world class fullback. I think the latter is essential if you are going to play two specialist wingers:

Year: 11, 14, 15

2000: Roff, Mortlock, Latham
2001: Roff, Walker, Burke
2001: Roff, Latham, Burke
2002: Mortlock, Tune, Latham
2003: Tuqiri, Sailor, Latham
2003: Tuqiri, Sailor, Rogers
2004: Tuqiri, Rathbone, Roff
2004: Tuqiri, Rathbone, Latham
2006: Tuqiri, Gerrard, Latham
2007: Tuqiri, Ashley-Cooper, Huxley
2007: Gerrard, Ashley-Cooper, Huxley
2008: Tuqiri, Hynes, Ashley-Cooper
2008: Tuqiri, Hynes, Mitchell
2008: Mitchell, Hynes, Ashley-Cooper
2009: Mitchell, Turner, O’Connor
2010: Mitchell, Ioane, O’Connor
2010: Mitchell, O’Connor, Ashley-Cooper
2010: Mitchell, O’Connor, Beale
2011: Ioane, O’Connor, Beale
2011: Ioane, Ashley-Cooper, Beale
2012: Ioane, Shipperley, Beale
2012: Ioane, Cummins, Barnes
2013: Tomane, Folau, Beale
2014: Horne, Ashley-Cooper, Folau
2015: Mitchell, Ashley-Cooper, Folau
2016: Hodge, Haylett-Petty, Folau
2017: Hodge, Koroibete, Folau
2018: Koroibete, Maddocks, Haylett-Petty
2019: Koroibete, Hodge, Beale

This is great research and food for thought. As since 2014 we have lacked having specialist wingers. Wonder why we are not developing top class specialist wingers. As on top of that relied on lot of league players to fill the void.

 

[KOB1987]

It's funny though, the common denominators for the successful lineups over the past 4 seasons are Hodge & Koroibete, which seems to be where we are at right now. Maybe that's just simply the best of the available options.

 

[wamberal]

This is great research and food for thought. As since 2014 we have lacked having specialist wingers. Wonder why we are not developing top class specialist wingers. As on top of that relied on lot of league players to fill the void.

That might be because league buys the players, maybe wingers are more suited to league, comparatively, than some other rugby positions? It goes without saying that there is more money, at an earlier age, in league than there is in our game.