Wallabies 2020

[Braveheart81]

As a comparison of those suggested as possible Wallabies candidates according to rugbypass stats:

Tom Wright 83%
Filipo Daugunu 80%
Marika Korobiete 69%
James Ramm 68%

Further comparison

George Bridge 89%
Sevu Reece 81%
Ben Smith 81%
Reiko Ioane 79%

Where do you get the stats on Rugbypass? Do you need to be a subscriber?

 

[rugboy]

TY - i was looking for stats but couldn't find any good ones. Where'd you get em? I saw Ramm's quoted by someone else here.

As to your point - yeah wingers get put in tough spots pretty regularly. I always found defending harder at fullback though. Not sure if that pans out at professional level.

Rugboy - you have any fullback stats to go with that?

Where do you get the stats on Rugbypass? Do you need to be a subscriber?

Go to rugbypass.com. Click on magnifying glass in top right corner.

Then type in player name. You can click on the third one down and go straight to his statistics or can choose as option if you just clink on his name.

Brings up this if statistics selected above.

under his name at top you can flick between options of stats, games, news, or the summary on home. use dropdown to check out individual games on right or seasons on left.

 

[Wilson]

Where do you get the stats on Rugbypass? Do you need to be a subscriber?

Via the specific team pages, there's a statistics section:
https://www.rugbypass.com/super-rugby-australia/teams/reds/statistics/

You can also go via the rugby pass index (which doesn't seem to have been updated this year) and click on advanced player stats next to the player profile picture for their full stats

 

[Derpus]

Where do you get the stats on Rugbypass? Do you need to be a subscriber?

Click on individual players then click stats. E.g. here is Maddocks: https://www.rugbypass.com/super-rugby/teams/waratahs/players/jack-maddocks/statistics/

Who has 67% tackle success rate.

Some other fullbacks:
Banks 86
Jock Campbell 77
Havili 65
JBar 75
Dmac 67

I think it's harder to defend at fullback because you are usually making a tackle after a break has already been made.

 

[barbarian]

I imagine those stats come off relatively low overall numbers though.

As time goes on I've become far less enamoured with tackle % as a metric, especially for backs. For wingers surely a lot would depend on the defensive system employed, and where they stand in the line (if they are even in the line at all).

I've seen Koro defend for the Wallabies and while he is caught out of position on the odd occasion what he provides is physical defence that has yielded turnovers, so a 60-odd% success rate in SuperAU doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

 

[Derpus]

I imagine those stats come off relatively low overall numbers though.

As time goes on I've become far less enamoured with tackle % as a metric, especially for backs. For wingers surely a lot would depend on the defensive system employed, and where they stand in the line (if they are even in the line at all).

I've seen Koro defend for the Wallabies and while he is caught out of position on the odd occasion what he provides is physical defence that has yielded turnovers, so a 60-odd% success rate in SuperAU doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

It's pretty clear that Ramm doesn't bring that front on, hard hitting but slightly lower percentage tackling, though. I would prefer higher accuracy.

 

[eastman]

As time goes on I've become far less enamoured with tackle % as a metric, especially for backs. For wingers surely a lot would depend on the defensive system employed, and where they stand in the line (if they are even in the line at all).

I agree- tackle % as a metric is meaningless in isolation. I remember a while back, certain posters were using that metric to suggest that Rob Horne was an average defender, when it was quite obvious it was his task to aggressively lead the defensive line and subsequently would miss occasionally. Ask any player, you didn't want to be marked by Horne.

 

[Braveheart81]

As a comparison of those suggested as possible Wallabies candidates according to rugbypass stats:

Tom Wright 83%
Filipo Daugunu 80%
Marika Korobiete 69%
James Ramm 68%

Of these, Tom Wright is high percentage from a low total, Daugaunu high percentage from a high total, Koroibete is low percentage from a high total and Ramm is a low percentage from a low total.

I agree with Barbarian that winger defensive stats need to be taken a little with a grain of salt.

The types of games played also play a part. Daugunu made 10/11 last week against the Rebels. It's not often that a winger would get that many opportunities to tackle and most of those tackles are going to be atypical in terms of the sort of tackles a winger generally needs to make (one on one in open space).

 

[Up the Guts]

Wingers' tackle percentages are always brought down by overlaps and having to make the decision to jam or drift. A winger can do a good job of jamming so that the opposition is forced to rush the pass allowing the cover defence to get across but it will still be counted as a miss on the stats.

More important for wingers is one on one defence, imo, take Campbell's miss on Ramm that led to the first try in the Tahs vs Reds, for instance. I don't think any of the four wingers in the running are noticeably substandard one on one tacklers and Daugunu and Koroibete are actually very good.

 

[TSR]

I’d imagine there would be at least a few wingers who, when it comes to the defensive team review they have as much ammo to criticise the defence coach as vice-versa. A lot of defence patterns - even really good ones - don’t do the wingers many favours.

 

[Rebels3]

Of these, Tom Wright is high percentage from a low total, Daugaunu high percentage from a high total, Koroibete is low percentage from a high total and Ramm is a low percentage from a low total.

I agree with Barbarian that winger defensive stats need to be taken a little with a grain of salt.

The types of games played also play a part. Daugunu made 10/11 last week against the Rebels. It's not often that a winger would get that many opportunities to tackle and most of those tackles are going to be atypical in terms of the sort of tackles a winger generally needs to make (one on one in open space).

100% wingers are at the beckoning of whatever system their team deploys. Equally Daugunu last week defended well but the majority of the Reds defense happened in their own 22 where all 15 players are in the defensive line, so you’re less exposed to 2 on 1s or space on the edges for teams to get front football.

Defensively wingers and fullbacks are more judged defensively on decision making than tackle percentage. You could be the worlds greatest tackler but make poor decisions that you don’t even get an opportunity to attempt a tackle, equally you could be a great decision maker but your decision has forced the player to not use the space outwide, you have missed your tackle but forced him back inside. I have played in teams where of the 3 attempts the winger has had to make all game 2 of them are 2 on 1 situations in a 20m channel, they miss the tackle but do a good job in halting the momentum of the player for cover to come over.

 

[Braveheart81]

Wingers' tackle percentages are always brought down by overlaps and having to make the decision to jam or drift. A winger can do a good job of jamming so that the opposition is forced to rush the pass allowing the cover defence to get across but it will still be counted as a miss on the stats.

Does this get counted though if you either don't attempt a tackle or the player they were going to tackle passes the ball?

 

[Up the Guts]

Does this get counted though if you either don't attempt a tackle or the player they were going to tackle passes the ball?

In sides I’ve been involved with that taped matches and outsourced stat collection, if the last defender in the line faces a two on one and jams in and the ball gets passed to the man outside then that is counted as a missed tackle against the winger/last defender (even though many sides deliberately leave the winger for the fullback to cover). Similarly, if the last man tries to drift but can’t get to the winger in time it’s also counted as a miss. If the winger drifts early and the second last attacker goes through it will likely be credited as a miss to the defender one in but this is pretty rare because most teams prefer a break to happen on the sideline than further in-field.

 

[sendit]

Does this get counted though if you either don't attempt a tackle or the player they were going to tackle passes the ball?

Pretty much what UTG said

i used to do stats for foxsports we always did: If a player just straight out burns another and goes through untouched its a missed tackle, if its say a wing and they jam in and the opposing winger makes a clean break they also unfortunately get done with the missed tackle

going to tackle and player passes the ball doesn't count as a negative stat towards the defense

 

[Dctarget]

Pretty much what UTG said

i used to do stats for foxsports/quote]

Dope, can I ask, did you do the stats in real time? Or over a long replay? How long would it take you?

 

[sendit]

Dope, can I ask, did you do the stats in real time? Or over a long replay? How long would it take you?

so there's 2 people doing it in real time, one that essentially commentates the game from a stats viewpoint and another who will input it into the system. Then after the game we'd go through it again straight away and do it frame by frame essentially.

On the replay you'd usually get a half each and go through it yourself, that could take anywhere from 2-4 hours depending on gameplay, stoppages etc

 

[Dctarget]

so there's 2 people doing it in real time, one that essentially commentates the game from a stats viewpoint and another who will input it into the system. Then after the game we'd go through it again straight away and do it frame by frame essentially.

On the replay you'd usually get a half each and go through it yourself, that could take anywhere from 2-4 hours depending on gameplay, stoppages etc

How interesting. Would you do league/other sports as well? Do you still work in a similar job?

 

[sendit]

How interesting. Would you do league/other sports as well? Do you still work in a similar job?

Dabbled in League but wasn't my forte, used a complete different format for inputting so was hard to jump between the two codes. League were also top tier for stats, alot more time and effort went into the league

no i don't, was only doing it on a casual basis for a few years around 2014-2017

 

[Brumby Runner]

I imagine those stats come off relatively low overall numbers though.

As time goes on I've become far less enamoured with tackle % as a metric, especially for backs. For wingers surely a lot would depend on the defensive system employed, and where they stand in the line (if they are even in the line at all).

I've seen Koro defend for the Wallabies and while he is caught out of position on the odd occasion what he provides is physical defence that has yielded turnovers, so a 60-odd% success rate in SuperAU doesn't trouble me in the slightest.

On the wingers I agree Barbs. I never subscribed to the widely held view that Henry Speight was a poor defender for the Wallabies because the barn dance defensive system caused multiple runners to be challenging the winger, whomever that was, and other structures have the winger defending at 13 rather than as last man in the line.

However, I think fullback is a different kettle of fish. Usually all used in a similar fashion and some of those names would have many years of action behind them now so that their stats are probably quite relevant.

 

[Up the Guts]

On the wingers I agree Barbs. I never subscribed to the widely held view that Henry Speight was a poor defender for the Wallabies because the barn dance defensive system caused multiple runners to be challenging the winger, whomever that was, and other structures have the winger defending at 13 rather than as last man in the line.

However, I think fullback is a different kettle of fish. Usually all used in a similar fashion and some of those names would have many years of action behind them now so that their stats are probably quite relevant.

Interestingly, Tom Wright used to get a pasting in schoolboys for being a poor tackler (he missed Aus Schools because of it) but I haven't noticed any issues in the past two seasons. I actually think league probably helped his one on one tackling.