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Wallabies 2020

formerflanker

Peter Fenwicke (45)
I don't think you should tinker with the number of substitutions. There is already an issue where particular players play too many minutes across the season. Lowering the number of subs from 8 to 5 would really exacerbate that and take away development opportunities for younger players.
Perhaps coaches could manage (i.e. reduce) the minutes for those particular players by starting younger players more regularly.
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
To me the best thing to do with scrums is just stop the clock after a reset until the ball leaves the final scrum. Effectively you are limiting the time used for each scrum sequence to a single scrum. Everything else creates other issues.


As much as I love scrums, this idea has the issue of increasing broadcast times as teams look to endless resets to give their players a rest.

Here's an idea: 30 seconds from whistle blown to form a scrum (pre-engagement sequence). If you don't get there in time, short arm against you. Then escalate to penalty on the second offence.

We'll see how many props learn to tie their shoelaces and tape them before the game.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
As much as I love scrums, this idea has the issue of increasing broadcast times as teams look to endless resets to give their players a rest.

Here's an idea: 30 seconds from whistle blown to form a scrum (pre-engagement sequence). If you don't get there in time, short arm against you. Then escalate to penalty on the second offence.

We'll see how many props learn to tie their shoelaces and tape them at the start of the game.


It's a balancing act. You definitely want to be able to stop a team from trying to achieve endless resets. The referee can already do this by blowing a penalty. Obviously that team could opt to take another scrum but that has limited benefit if their goal is to chew up time on the clock.

Ultimately players need to stop feigning injuries to give their team a breather. The duty of care is such that a referee can't push a player who may be injured to continuing to play.

We're only talking about stopping the clock for scrum resets so it should be a maximum of 5 minutes a game so won't make a material difference to broadcast times. It's a substantial difference in terms of cutting down wasted time in a game though.

Two of the biggest criticisms of rugby are the time lost for scrums and kicks at goal so reducing that without affecting the contest seems like a good idea. Shots at goal could be capped at 30 seconds off the clock for example (but still giving the kicker the same amount of time to kick that they currently have).
 

Jimmy_Crouch

Alan Cameron (40)
Here's an idea: 30 seconds from whistle blown to form a scrum (pre-engagement sequence). If you don't get there in time, short arm against you. Then escalate to penalty on the second offence.

Change the law so that a short arm can not be a scrum. Just make it a tap only
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
Same as early engage call. First a short arm then a full arm.


There are about 4 or 5 different free kicks a defensive scrum can give away though. Under the existing laws, it is only a penalty when you do each specific one a second time.

There is definitely the capacity for this to be abused if you didn't allow a scrum to be called from a free kick.

This is why I'd opt for stopping the clock. You're not changing the scrum contest, just removing the thing people complain most about the process.
 

Jimmy_Crouch

Alan Cameron (40)
There are about 4 or 5 different free kicks a defensive scrum can give away though. Under the existing laws, it is only a penalty when you do each specific one a second time.

There is definitely the capacity for this to be abused if you didn't allow a scrum to be called from a free kick.

This is why I'd opt for stopping the clock. You're not changing the scrum contest, just removing the thing people complain most about the process.

Stopping the clock is fine but the scrum re-sets suck the life out of the fans. People get bored and start talking and not watching it is a deadspot in the game, especially live
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
Also: I no longer care if one of your forwards is upfield getting attended to or fucking around with bootlaces (a skill that most children have mastered. The lineout goes on regardless. Don't even care if its the hooker.

Get the throw done in 30 seconds from the time the flag goes up for touch or concede a short-arm. Second offence penalty.

No conferences, no slow walks in. Just get it done.

The issue is only partly with players I might add - refs need to lift their game in this area. If a player is injured seriously enough to need attention, they can get the fuck off the park and not enough refs clamp down on this bullshit.
 

Up the Guts

Andrew Slack (58)
Also: I no longer care if one of your forwards is upfield getting attended to or fucking around with bootlaces (a skill that most children have mastered. The lineout goes on regardless. Don't even care if its the hooker.

Get the throw done in 30 seconds from the time the flag goes up for touch or concede a short-arm. Second offence penalty.

No conferences, no slow walks in. Just get it done.

The issue is only partly with players I might add - refs need to lift their game in this area. If a player is injured seriously enough to need attention, they can get the fuck off the park and not enough refs clamp down on this bullshit.
And enough of the mind the gap warnings at the lineout, if a side is closing the gap short-arm them and then penalise them after that. Berry struck up a conversation about the gap at every single lineout last week.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
Also: I no longer care if one of your forwards is upfield getting attended to or fucking around with bootlaces (a skill that most children have mastered. The lineout goes on regardless. Don't even care if its the hooker.

Get the throw done in 30 seconds from the time the flag goes up for touch or concede a short-arm. Second offence penalty.

No conferences, no slow walks in. Just get it done.

The issue is only partly with players I might add - refs need to lift their game in this area. If a player is injured seriously enough to need attention, they can get the fuck off the park and not enough refs clamp down on this bullshit.


This is the challenge for referees though. If you're not going to stop play for some injuries then injured players will be more likely to try and play on with an injury which is potentially dangerous.

There was an article earlier in the year quoting Matt To'omua suggesting that referees need to crack down on time wasting and listed the various tactics teams use to have a prop go down injured. He lacked the self awareness to realise that the problem with timewasting and fake injuries isn't the referees but the fact that every team does this and that the only way it goes away is if teams stop using those tactics.

You definitely want players to stop wasting time but I also don't think you want teams scoring tries because the opposition had an injured player.
 

Derpus

Rod McCall (65)
Nonsense. The only way to regulate behaviour is to create and enforce rules. You cant just ask nicely for them to stop when they are gaining advantage from it.

In fact, if you actively avoided doing something that could gain you an advantage and is legal you arent really doing your job

E.g. Why rush a lineout and risk fucking it up if you dont need to?
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
Nonsense. The only way to regulate behaviour is to enforce.You cant just ask nicely for them to stop when they are gaining advantage from it.

In fact, if you actively avoided doing something that could gain you an advantage and is legal you arent really doing your job.


OK, how do you tell if someone is actually injured and requires treatment or is just faking?

How do you balance the desire to keep play going and not have tactical stoppages with ensuring you don't have a player packing into a scrum or similar that should be receiving treatment?
 

Derpus

Rod McCall (65)
Hrmm, well. Injury subs could be an option i. e. If an injured player actually needs treatment it has to be off the field and they have to be subbed.

Couldnt work for scrums but lineouts to continue even if a player is down just as it would if a player was hurt in general play.

I durno im definitely better at identifying problems than solving them. I dont think 'oh its too hard' is good enough though.
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
OK, how do you tell if someone is actually injured and requires treatment or is just faking?

How do you balance the desire to keep play going and not have tactical stoppages with ensuring you don't have a player packing into a scrum or similar that should be receiving treatment?


I use the example of the Cheetahs a few years back: same prop kept going down, ice pack to the neck/shoulder etc.

For the first one, then OK. If he's THAT injured, get him off the field at the second bite, and we're done here.

It won't happen overnight, but it *will* happen.

For any position outside the tight five, play on until it becomes an issue for general play to continue.

We can talk about duty of care all day, but the player knows when they're injured or not, so they need to accept responsibility as well.
 
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Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
We can talk about duty of care all day, but the player knows when they're injured or not, so they need to accept responsibility as well.


We also brought in rules around head injuries because players never did take responsibility for their own health and safety.

It's not a simple situation to fix. I agree plenty needs to be done to try and improve it though.
 

Pfitzy

David Wilson (68)
We also brought in rules around head injuries because players never did take responsibility for their own health and safety.


Notable exception that everyone is now (getting) educated on. Blue card is one of the best things to happen IMHO, and concussion and bleeding are more easily identified than a stinger or joint pain.
 
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