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Wallabies v Springboks II, Allianz Stadium 7:35pm 03/09/22

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
Box kicks usually happen between the 22 & half way where you can only kick long or run it back (with the risk that a turn over will have them camped just outside the 22)

A box kick is a wonderful tool when done effectively, it is a contestable kick ie the team needs to contest the bloody thing and create pressure It takes team work and effort
Too true FP. And as much as some here think Nic's box kicks are the pits, he is far and away the best box kicker in the Aussie camp. Trouble is that we hardly contest for the ball in the air, and with Koroibete injured early last game that was in effect the end of our chasing game.

I will agree however with the criticism that we kicked away too much possession on the weekend and that the reliance on the box kick should have been amended to account for Marika's injury. In that regard, I wonder what the coaches' and captains' instructions were? Surely they should have seen the need to change tactics.
 

Brumby Runner

Tim Horan (67)
water stoppages and injury stoppages aren't part of the 40 minutes.

I wonder how this is broken down? Does it mean the stoppages for lineouts are from the time the ball is kicked out to the time that is thrown in?

Are restart kicks just the time it takes to do a goal line drop out?

The four scrums for 5 minutes is the biggest issue there. I think teams just have to take greater ownership of not faffing around at the pack - but it probably has to be driven by a World Rugby or SANZAAR directive to do it better.
Four scrums won't give much opportunity to keep the ball in play longer. Cut the average time per scrum back to (say) 1 minute and we have only 1 minute of extra game time in the half. Three penalties accounted for the same time lost. How about decreeing that penalty goals must be taken by dropkick?
 

eastman

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Agree. The ref does not decide the game. Sure they make mistakes but none are openly biased to one side or the other.
At this level the team should know and be prepared for the ref who has been assigned to the game. No question about it. They all have slightly different interpretations of the laws and how they should be applied and it is easy for all coaches and players to be knowledgeable about all the test referees.
I think the complaints about the referee are less about bias or favouritism and more about the impact that the referee had on the spectacle through being overly pedantic.

For customers who have paid good money to be entertained, I think they have that right to be critical.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
I'm still not sure what was overly pedantic?

Which penalties exactly?

There was one more penalty this week than there was last week.
 

eastman

Phil Hardcastle (33)
Nic’s definitely the best proponent of the box kick (and currently our best scrum-half) but he has had a propensity throughout his career to overplay his hand especially when it comes to kicking. He also tends to kick the ball more and worse when the Wallabies are under pressure.

Let‘s give him a rest for a couple of weeks; we’re not going to win the Bledisoe so why not give Gordon and McDermott a game each.
 

eastman

Phil Hardcastle (33)
I'm still not sure what was overly pedantic?

Which penalties exactly?

There was one more penalty this week than there was last week.
There were one or two relatively innocuous penalties against the attacking team for not ’coming through the gate’ which could be labelled pedantic.

This might be unfair but he also comes across as a real bellend which might make things worse.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
There were one or two relatively innocuous penalties against the attacking team for not ’coming through the gate’ which could be labelled pedantic.

I remember one against South Africa where Willie Le Roux was almost closer to entering from the Wallaby side than the Springbok side. Without penalising him South Africa retain the ball.

Do we want that to be play on?
 

PhilClinton

Jim Lenehan (48)
Hi Viking, the last one I liked was Ben Mowen but that was nearly 10 years ago. We need another Farr-Jones or Eales. I wonder if McReight will be one? Assuming he can cement a spot.

Didn't rate Moore? I thought he was alright.

I rate McReight's energy and players take notice of him, will be interesting because I think McDermott has cemented his spot at the Reds so I can't see McReight getting a crack there.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
We need another Farr-Jones or Eales.

What we really need is the supporting cast that helped make these captains who they were.

In 1991 Farr-Jones had Lynagh, Poidevin, McCall, McKenzie, Kearns not to mention youngsters like Horan and Eales.

In 1999 Eales almost had too many good leaders in the team to mention. Pretty much the whole team.

For much of Hooper's time as captain we've struggled to have any alternative captains in the side let alone a good stable of leaders to support him. Earlier this season several journos were seriously suggesting Nic White as an alternative which I think gives a pretty good indication of the problem. Hooper has grown into the role immensely over the journey but was clearly too inexperienced at the start. The problem was there was no one else.
 

todd4

Jim Clark (26)
From Kevin Millar on twitter:

In the first half of the game, of the 40 minutes, the ball was only in play for 14 minutes and 35 seconds. Dire.

18 lineouts took up 13m 51s or 31%.
4 scrums - 5m 40s (12.5%).
3 goal kicks - 5m 40s (12.5%).
2 stoppages (water break & injury when clock was off) - 3m 13s (7%).
3 restart kicks - 1m 40s (4%).
Other - 35s (1%)
This is why I deliberately wait at least 30 mins after kick off before watching the stream 'from the start'. I can then fast forward through a lot of this faffing about and also fast forward through half time.

I see they were taking nearly 2 mins per place kick. I thought there was a 1 min time limit on place kicks? (maybe I'm wrong).
 

dru

John Eales (66)
There were one or two relatively innocuous penalties against the attacking team for not ’coming through the gate’ which could be labelled pedantic.

This might be unfair but he also comes across as a real bellend which might make things worse.

It's not just the ref but the video ref.

I remember one against South Africa where Willie Le Roux was almost closer to entering from the Wallaby side than the Springbok side. Without penalising him South Africa retain the ball.

Do we want that to be play on?

BH his penalties were always on point in therms of the laws, which you would expect at this level. But sure interpretation and game management is also a big part of an excellent test referee. Yes it requires the two teams to buy in but simply of the result of the stop-start nature of the test, it's not possible to label this performance with excellence.

I'm completely happy with the level playing field and meeting basic ref KPIs. But that is not enough for internationals.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Hi Viking, the last one I liked was Ben Mowen but that was nearly 10 years ago. We need another Farr-Jones or Eales. I wonder if McReight will be one? Assuming he can cement a spot.

Ben Mowen was a great Captain, unfortunately he was probably a better captain then he was a player and unlikely to keep his starting sport. Great line-out technician too, I wonder if he will start coaching.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
Didn't rate Moore? I thought he was alright.

I rate McReight's energy and players take notice of him, will be interesting because I think McDermott has cemented his spot at the Reds so I can't see McReight getting a crack there.

I thought Moore was worse then Hooper. Poor social skills (terrible with refs) and not really a primary voice in the team either.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
BH his penalties were always on point in therms of the laws, which you would expect at this level. But sure interpretation and game management is also a big part of an excellent test referee. Yes it requires the two teams to buy in but simply of the result of the stop-start nature of the test, it's not possible to label this performance with excellence.

I'm completely happy with the level playing field and meeting basic ref KPIs. But that is not enough for internationals.

This is my point though. I don't think those things are being pedantic. It's not in the interests of letting the game flow if you allow the team with the ball to keep it by clearing out illegally or the team struggling to defend to not get back onside.

I'm not saying he was excellent just that I don't think the criticism is warranted.
 
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Viking

Mark Ella (57)
This is my point though. I don't think those things are being pedantic. It's not in the interests of letting the game flow if you allow the team with the ball to keep it by clearing out illegally or the team struggling to defend to not get back onside.

I'm not saying he was excellent just that I don't think the criticism is warranted.

I agree on that example.

But what about for 'holding on'. He blows the whistle so quickly. Give it a second or two at least. Why not let it play on, especially if the ball is now cleanly in opposition hands anyway, or at least play advantage at a minimum.
 

Braveheart81

James Horwill (77)
Staff member
But what about for 'holding on'. He blows the whistle so quickly. Give it a second or two at least. Why not let it play on, especially if the ball is now cleanly in opposition hands anyway, or at least play advantage at a minimum.

Yeah, I can think of one or two of those that could have probably been let go.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
What we really need is the supporting cast that helped make these captains who they were.

In 1991 Farr-Jones had Lynagh, Poidevin, McCall, McKenzie, Kearns not to mention youngsters like Horan and Eales.

In 1999 Eales almost had too many good leaders in the team to mention. Pretty much the whole team.

For much of Hooper's time as captain we've struggled to have any alternative captains in the side let alone a good stable of leaders to support him. Earlier this season several journos were seriously suggesting Nic White as an alternative which I think gives a pretty good indication of the problem. Hooper has grown into the role immensely over the journey but was clearly too inexperienced at the start. The problem was there was no one else.


great point. You only have to look at who captains the other teams:

Reds - Tate McDermott and Liam Wright. McDermott can't get a regular spot in the 23 and Wright is no where near the team
Brumbies - AAA. Still hasn't nailed down the starting spot but is probably closer now but more due to Tupou's poor form.
Rebels - was it Michael Wells? Another way off Wallaby contention.
Force - Feleti Kaitu'u who has dropped so far off the radar its ridiculous.
 

tragic

John Solomon (38)
I'm still not sure what was overly pedantic?

Which penalties exactly?

There was one more penalty this week than there was last week.
There were a lot of offside penalties that were pretty borderline. I reviewed a few at the time and thought they were pretty tough. Especially some of the ones that happened under existing advantage.
Seemed no different to the plays that were on either side that were not penalised.
 

cyclopath

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Staff member
Too true FP. And as much as some here think Nic's box kicks are the pits, he is far and away the best box kicker in the Aussie camp. Trouble is that we hardly contest for the ball in the air, and with Koroibete injured early last game that was in effect the end of our chasing game.

I will agree however with the criticism that we kicked away too much possession on the weekend and that the reliance on the box kick should have been amended to account for Marika's injury. In that regard, I wonder what the coaches' and captains' instructions were? Surely they should have seen the need to change tactics.
Box kicks should not be assessed in isolation regarding the kicker, but rather as a team metric. If we look at the accuracy and execution of teams like Ireland, England, New Zealand (hell, most other teams but us) they have this much better sorted. As you say, we seem to rely on 1 guy to chase and and it just should not be so. Also the "blockers" need to know who they are and just bloody do it - it was noticeable on the weekend that the Bokke had people slotting in to that position on cue and well-positioned each time, whereas White always seemed to have pressure on him unless the caterpillar was 4 players long. We just have to be better at it.
 
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