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Wallaby Captaincy

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Jagman

Trevor Allan (34)



No. It's because you cannot at all relate to the person in the moment of a once in a career opportunity, and sit there speaking absolutes after the fact since you've never been in that position.
Ummmm... What do you know about me and my career opportunities?

Horwill was the captain. The captain has to make big decisions in big moments and get them right. He got it wrong and admitted he got it wrong.


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T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Ummmm. What do you know about me and my career opportunities?

Horwill was the captain. The captain has to make big decisions in big moments and get them right. He got it wrong and admitted he got it wrong.



Humblest apologies. I was unaware your career last only a decade and you have had the opportunity to be involved in a massive challenge that only occurs every 12 years.

On your second point, read my second post. May have got it wrong in hindsight, but everybody's a fucking genius with the benefit of hindsight, aren't they? What were the known options at the time the decision was made?
 

Jagman

Trevor Allan (34)



Humblest apologies. I was unaware your career last only a decade and you have had the opportunity to be involved in a massive challenge that only occurs every 12 years.

On your second point, read my second post. May have got it wrong in hindsight, but everybody's a fucking genius with the benefit of hindsight, aren't they? What were the known options at the time the decision was made?
I'm not gonna bite with the first one. You wanna make it personal and make assumptions that no ones life decisions can possible compare to a guy who plays a game for a living then go right ahead.

My understanding from what came out in the media from Deans book. ( the only reason we know about the incident) is that the hamstring injury occurred late in the week and Deans wasn't made aware of it, and it is implied that if he had he would have scratched him.


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biggsy

Chilla Wilson (44)
Quade for captain! I fucking love it. Ex-communicated from the team to come back as leader and savior. The romance! The drama! The intrigue! What a story!

Love it, may well come true on Saturday when he gets on the feild with a massive come from behind win. All thanks to QC (Quade Cooper). :)
 

Brumby Runner

David Wilson (68)
Love it, may well come true on Saturday when he gets on the feild with a massive come from behind win. All thanks to QC (Quade Cooper). :)

I like the confidence that Quade is going to beat the ABs on his own, I really do.:p The reality is that we'll probably get quite a beating at the hands of the ABs this week, regardless of how Quade plays, but I just want him back at 10 as he has shown he has a lot more control over a game than Bernie Foley has at the moment. Just a pity that he might not come up against Cruden, whom he has little problem making look a bit foolish in defense.;)
 
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Train Without a Station

Guest
No need to bite. I'm just pointing out that you could do a number of great things and they would not really compare. You could be an Olympic athlete, soccer player, cricketer, and your chance for one of your biggest events still roles around every 4 years. Pointing out that a Lions Tour is a uniquely rare event which is only in rugby union in 3 countries (excluding the Lions because even they will get about 3 attempts in their career).

Plenty of opportunities may potentially only come once in a career, but this was definitely once in a career simply due to the timing of the events.

But ultimately you're bitter about Horwill because of something implied? Bit of a long bow. Do you know Blades wasn't in his ear saying "Fuck we need to you play James".

They obviously packed scrums at training and saw how he was performing remember. Was his resolve further enforced by players and coaching staff getting in his ear?
 

Tomikin

Simon Poidevin (60)
I thought that was my point
Wasn't in general a go at you, just people bang on that Hooper 'Captained' the Tahs to the Super Tital. Like he was some kind of stand out captain. He was in fact just a stand in for the real boss.

He is our Captain, for now and the end of season tour at least. By middle of next year he might be the obvious choice.
 

Scoey

Tony Shaw (54)
It's fairly telling that our two main candidates for Captain of the Wallabies aren't (or weren't) even the first choice captains for their province.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
It's fairly telling that our two main candidates for Captain of the Wallabies aren't (or weren't) even the first choice captains for their province.

I hear you but this practice of a national captain not captaining their province is fairly widespread now in rugby.
It's happened with O'Driscoll, McCaw and Gregan at different stages.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Wasn't Hoiles the Brumbies captain when Mortlock captained the Wallabies also?

Generally from what I remember it's been that the provincial captain has been younger, and it was more a transition.

Gregan Wallabies Captain with Mortlock Brumbies Captain, Mortlock Wallabies captain with Hoiles Brumbies Captain.

Could be off the mark though/
 

Beefcake

Bill Watson (15)
Not sure when Moore's form was last inconsistent, seem to remember him being widely considered the 2nd or 3rd best hooker in the world when fit.

Dont doubt Moore's time has invariably in shown numerous rich vein of form to legitimise those sentiments, but lately consistently average to my mind. Maybe because its been a consistent average performance by the pack with few standouts - Slipper & Hooper have been the stand out for atleast for the last two years

Do you watch rugby? Genia is a horrid captain. Hot headed, lacks diplomacy (remember him misunderstanding Kafer's post game question and having a go at him?), petulant, rips into team mates when he's having a bad game.

Disagree. Those are minor personality tweaks that certainly (and should) change with maturity with life in and outside the rugby environment i.e. getting married, kids, long injury layout etc.

Id suggest he'll be an even better player once he gets going cause - this is not about his game - the guy skillset is matchless in Wobs - White/Phibbs/Burgess pale in comparison - so really its his personality and as witnessed with Mr Volatile QC (Quade Cooper), players can change (hopefully sooner than later).

I don't necessarily think Moore is a great captain, more a quiet leader in my mind, but he is out and out our best hooker and the only position we are consistently stronger than the all blacks.

Are you being sarcastic? Cause it certainly worked :)
 

Gillys_ghost

Dave Cowper (27)
I can give two reasons. His infamous complaint to the ref in the 2nd bled of 2013 about what NZ got away with in the 1st game. Yes he sounded childish.

And the fact the played the last lions test injured just because he didn't want to miss out. That actually makes me quite bitter towards him.


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I dont think your 1st criticism of horwill has alot of substance because everyone does it and your 2nd point would be valid if he played worse that everyone else, which he didnt. He wasnt great but Douglas for instance played one of the worst games from recent memory so i dont understand why you would be angry at Kev for playing injured when it didnt effect anything?
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
Will Genia is closer to retirement than his debut. If they are such minor personality tweaks why hasn't he come close to addressing them?

I'd wager a guess, probably because he's a petulant hot head who allegedly doesn't take criticism on board.

Moore is the best hooker in Australia. One of the best in the world. You will struggle to get anybody to disagree with that.
 

No4918

John Hipwell (52)
It is very telling that Moore was sounded out and not Hooper/AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)/Slipper about the outside consultancy firm. Whether you believe the leak or not about Pulver's criticism of Hooper's, he is looking like a temporary option.
 

It is what it is

John Solomon (38)
Leadership skills are both natural and learned.
Not sure what the Wallabies currently do to develop and succession plan for leadership but the Kiwi's treat leadership development with the importance it deserves.
The NZRU consistently develops leadership candidates at the national and provincial level as an ongoing strategy. They look for diversity in age, ethnicity, background and styles as well as mixing them up together, and matching them up with mentors for further development.
Someone being a strong candidate for captaincy because of the great number of tests he's played carries very little weight for mine.
Most big on-field decisions in test rugby will be made while under physical fatigue, mental stress, time restraints and crowd/coach/peer pressure.
We need someone who can not only handle the blowtorch on the field, but also nail it off the field.
Many readers would be amazed at the lack of leadership behaviours evident in so many of our senior players after comprehensive testing.
Saw an interesting feature recently on NRL referees training. They simulate game time decision making to some degree by getting the referees physically exhausted on rowing machines and then show them a real game film clip, or yell a hypothetical game situation at them while in their face. The referee then has to calmly share the decision they'd make, including all considerations.
Yep, I know they still get some wrong, but they get a lot right without the benefit of slow mo replays and a resting heartbeat too. I admire the effort they go to.
Are current and prospective rugby captains subjected to any simulation of the broad range of on field/ off field scenarios they will face in their workplace today?
 

Scrubber2050

Mark Ella (57)
Will Genia is closer to retirement than his debut. If they are such minor personality tweaks why hasn't he come close to addressing them?

I'd wager a guess, probably because he's a petulant hot head who allegedly doesn't take criticism on board.

Moore is the best hooker in Australia. One of the best in the world. You will struggle to get anybody to disagree with that.

TWAS - I am so glad your blood pressure has returned to normal after the last page or 2 - Thought we'd lost you there for a moment or 2
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The captaincy issue surely stems from the fact that our team as a whole lacks enough strong leaders and there are faults in the play and leadership of just about every member of the team.

You look at the great Wallaby captains (Eales, NFJ etc.) and all of them had several other players in their team who you'd also consider a strong captain option.

It was pointed out earlier that Hooper hasn't had the benefit of playing under a great captain at the Wallabies prior to being captain himself but sadly, the same can be said for the whole team.

You'd expect that if this team does improve substantially in the next couple of years that not only does the leadership of whoever is captain improves but also those who aren't the captain but could be or were previously.

Similar to when people are calling for an untried player to be tested because we're unhappy with the current player (even though at Super Rugby level that player was clearly better), the same arguments are being run regarding the captain.

The two most popular options in the thread seem to be Moore and Slipper who both haven't had the opportunity to not succeed as captain.

Hooper, Horwill, Genia, and Pocock all have flaws in their captaincy ability. That's not to say that some of all of them don't make better captains than the players who are yet to have that opportunity.
 

Beefcake

Bill Watson (15)
Will Genia is closer to retirement than his debut. If they are such minor personality tweaks why hasn't he come close to addressing them?

I'd wager a guess, probably because he's a petulant hot head who allegedly doesn't take criticism on board.

Moore is the best hooker in Australia. One of the best in the world. You will struggle to get anybody to disagree with that.

If your isolating petulance, then his class (QC (Quade Cooper), JOC (James O'Connor), KB (Kurtley Beale), Ioane et al) certainly had that in spades. Egocentricity, self-centredness etc are all personality issues associated with immaturity. And I agree hopefully he has addressed them. Genia's fire is key to his drive and form, and perhaps a leadership trait often overlooked is the desire to get the best out of the playing group by holding people accountable - prolly what the wobs need right now.

Those acclaims I dont doubt over Moore's career - however when you use the darkness as a comparison, the lens is more critical. And as I've stated, my pre-requisite for captaincy is performing with authority over a significant period of time and is the problem with the musical chairs of Wobs captaincy lately. I'd be happy to persist with Hooper, dont mind Pocock or Genia. Horwill has form issues. Anyone but QC (Quade Cooper).
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
QC (Quade Cooper) has shown better leadership and guidance than Genia has. He has either grown immensely as a person, or at least faked it extremely well. Genia has done neither. The only change in his attitude has been in a negative direction.

So Horwill has form issues but Genia doesn't. Thank you for confirming my initial query that you don't watch rugby. Or at least confirming you haven't watched it in the last 12 months.
 

Beefcake

Bill Watson (15)
QC (Quade Cooper) has shown better leadership and guidance than Genia has. He has either grown immensely as a person, or at least faked it extremely well. Genia has done neither. The only change in his attitude has been in a negative direction.

So Horwill has form issues but Genia doesn't. Thank you for confirming my initial query that you don't watch rugby. Or at least confirming you haven't watched it in the last 12 months.

No thank you for clarifying your example of leadership and petulance. :)
 
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