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What rugby needs to do to get back to its roots and entertain customers.

PhilClinton

Geoff Shaw (53)
Part of the issue with the comparison to league is basic stats they use. Tackles/runs etc all just favour league as they miss huge portions of player effort in rugby.

Imagine if you compared a league game with union stats? Ruck involvements, maul involvements, lineout wins, scrums you actually pushed in. Two completely different games.

We need to get commentators/media to look at and report better level statistics.
Definitely agree - but I think the fair comparison lately is that league has innovated their game to keep it exciting over the last few years much better than rugby.

Take last week for example, there are plenty in the media and former players calling the 2022 SOO decider the best game of rugby league ever. Many on these forums have echoed that.

I have to think back a fair number of years before I come close to saying a game of rugby would qualify for the best ever. In other words, as it currently stands, rugbys best days are behind us, unless we change things up.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Part of the issue with the comparison to league is basic stats they use. Tackles/runs etc all just favour league as they miss huge portions of player effort in rugby.

Imagine if you compared a league game with union stats? Ruck involvements, maul involvements, lineout wins, scrums you actually pushed in. Two completely different games.

We need to get commentators/media to look at and report better level statistics.
Was interested to hear RTS (Roger Tuivasa-Sheck) saying the tackling in union was what was wearing him out most, says he made on average 2 tackles a game in league, and having to do a lot more in union. I know he played different position in league (I think) , but was a little surprised.
 

PhilClinton

Geoff Shaw (53)
Was interested to hear RTS (Roger Tuivasa-Sheck) saying the tackling in union was what was wearing him out most, says he made on average 2 tackles a game in league, and having to do a lot more in union. I know he played different position in league (I think) , but was a little surprised.

Any comments around tackling from RTS (Roger Tuivasa-Sheck) aren't great comparison points - he played fullback in league, probably the least tackle intense position on the field.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Any comments around tackling from RTS (Roger Tuivasa-Sheck) aren't great comparison points - he played fullback in league, probably the least tackle intense position on the field.
Well wondered that Phil, as I said never watch the game so don't know and just always hear leaguies say how great they are at defence so was surprised is all.
 

stoff

Bill McLean (32)
I agree with this - there are too many PKs/ FKs at scrum time, and all that has been accomplished is time to set/ reset/ then penalise a scrum.
So true.

With the feed being near enough to direct to the second row the only point of a scrum is a battle for a penalty. The problem is the scrum has stopped being a contest for posession and become a contest for penalties.
 

Lindommer

Steve Williams (59)
Staff member
This was on a Fairfax site earlier this week, and will soon disappear behind a paywall. So, I'm posting it here:

A boring product trapped by pedantic rules: Why it’s time rugby joined the entertainment game.​


Even before the recent World Cup nightmare, Australian rugby has been doing it tough. Big cuts in media contracts, junior talent leaking to rugby league, Super Rugby clubs on death’s door, and no World Cup or Bledisloe silverware for decades have all been notable features of a bleak landscape.

It’s always easy to sledge sport administrators, and while some of its problems have been self-inflicted, Australian rugby is in intensive care not because of poor governance but because of the game’s poor economics. Wise heads who love the game around the world, especially those around the board table of World Rugby, would do well to ponder its economic problems in this country, as they’re fundamental and global in nature.

Australia is the canary in the coal mine of a dim long-term economic future for rugby globally unless the sport has the courage to embrace change and modernisation. No other rugby-playing country has anywhere near as crowded a domestic football market as ours. In the increasingly winner-takes-all or winner-takes-most nature of sports industries globally, Australian rugby is seriously and increasingly marginalised as the No.4 domestic football code.​


The game is going backwards economically because, aside from episodic scintillating moments like the first half of France-South Africa in the recent World Cup, it’s become lousy entertainment, especially at the global level. It’s a boring product trapped in a pedantic and officiously applied rule book that’s gamed successfully by top nations and their coaches. Rugby tragics love it and can explain with certitude the reason why any of the dozens of penalty sins proscribed in the laws of the game merit a three-point punishment. Unfortunately, for the casual observer it’s impenetrable and a total turn-off. It’s no way to grow an audience.

Basic stats tell the story. The average playing time in recent World Cups has been around 35 minutes out of 80. That’s 43 per cent. A good portion of that 43 per cent has been taken up in end-to-end kickathons or waiting for endless box kicks to return to earth. Rule changes to rugby league in recent years to speed up the contest mean games now average over 50 per cent playing time.
In Australia’s most lucrative football code, Australian rules, the ball’s in play for 75 per cent or more of clock time. In soccer it’s higher than that. The AFL continually tweaks the game’s rules to make it more attractive for fans, broadcasters and sponsors, often with the objective of outsmarting the coaches who want to slow it down for tactical advantage. No surprises which codes are winning the commercial contest.

Should it be of concern to stewards of global rugby that the most successful nation in the game’s shopfront World Cup has landed three of its four final triumphs without scoring a try? (Good luck to South Africa for figuring out that winning formula better than anyone.) That so much of the game’s tactics are now aimed at kicking for territorial advantage and inducing technical penalties within goal-kicking range, to produce scoreboard outcomes worth 60 per cent of what a try produces with a lot more certainty but also less entertainment value? That the predominance of backline tries in the inaugural 1987 World Cup has been largely replaced by crash-over tries by forward packs from within five metres, which spectators can’t see properly? That whenever a speaker at a rugby event these days says the game has become boring, there are choruses of approval from lovers of the game in the crowd?

A well-worn characterisation of this debate is “Northern Hemisphere v Southern Hemisphere”, which has taken the game precisely nowhere for decades. Likewise to say that if Australia wants to make the game more “entertaining”, it can have rules to that effect in Super Rugby. But if our elite players play a format one level below internationals that differs from international level, don’t expect the Wallabies to win very often. Which inevitably trickles down to economics at all levels of the game due to poor media contracts, and less competition globally from one of the sport’s supposed leading nations.

Rugby is full of passionate, informed and opinionated supporters. Ask 200 people what rule changes would improve the game and you’ll get 200 different answers. No one person can or should play God with what the rule book should say, even if they’re providing the funding. The game belongs to the people. What World Rugby should do is establish a game development and modernisation commission, with an independent chair. This commission should comprise game legends, referee and coach representatives with a balance from the northern and southern hemispheres, plus broadcasters and some of the private equity investors who’ve taken positions in the game surely seeing the commercial potential in an improved game product. Their mandate would be to recommend to World Rugby and fans worldwide a new slimlined rule book governed by a set of simple overarching principles designed to make rugby more entertaining without abandoning basic principles of the game that have stood for generations.

So, by way of example, what rule changes would need to be made to ensure that ball-in-play time is at least 66 per cent of clock time? To have points from tries exceed points from penalties? To have fewer end-to-end kickathons or basketball competitions from box kicks? To see more running rugby that fans love?

There’ll be a presidential election at World Rugby later this year. The recommendations from this commission should be up for public debate before then. Rugby fans deserve to hear presidential candidates’ views on these matters before someone is anointed behind closed doors. While the number of countries with a seat at the table makes change difficult, the sport needs to heed the lessons of the Australian market. Reform and modernisation of the game product is desperately overdue, to improve the sport’s economics and broad market appeal in an ever-more cutthroat sports entertainment industry.


This was written by John Wylie, chair of the Australia Sports Commission from 2012 to 2020.


Discuss
 
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mst

Peter Johnson (47)
In essence I agree with the article. It's a game that is coveting history at the expense of its existence. Especially here is Australia.
 

Bullrush

John Hipwell (52)
So is there any actual data to back the premise for this article? Is there any evidence to support the claim that there is a "dim long-term economic future for rugby globally" apart from the writer's assertions?

He says that "basic stats tell the story" and then fails to give any stats at all that prove rugby is headed towards this global economic cliff. 'Basic stats' like revenue and profits and losses would have been good but instead, all he provided was ball-in-play stats - a strange stat to use when you are talking about economics. Going by the headlines, rugby is growing in participation globally and 2023 was the most viewed RWC of all time.

That's not to say that improvements *cough* TMO interventions *cough* can't be made but Australia's current struggles have less to do with the game itself and more to do with the on-field results. It would be interesting to know how profitable the Brumbies/Reds/Waratahs were (or weren't) when they were winning.
 

Wilson

David Codey (61)
Not exactly sure why we need another thread to discuss this article, I feel like we did it death over in the super rugby thread:
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Ball in play time is fairly meaningless to compare between sports.

Is the ball in play time for soccer superior to the others?

Is the ball in league really "in play" when the first 4 tackles of every set are nearly identical? When they're is a "stoppage" every 10 seconds? Is a kick every 6 tackles worse than a box kick at every 4th ruck?

We need reform. We need to revisit the Laws that are outdated. We need to consider how it can be a good product in a market like ours despite the international oversight.

But we're never going to win if we use the wrong metrics.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
Ball in play time is fairly meaningless to compare between sports.

Is the ball in play time for soccer superior to the others?

Is the ball in league really "in play" when the first 4 tackles of every set are nearly identical? When they're is a "stoppage" every 10 seconds? Is a kick every 6 tackles worse than a box kick at every 4th ruck?

We need reform. We need to revisit the Laws that are outdated. We need to consider how it can be a good product in a market like ours despite the international oversight.

But we're never going to win if we use the wrong metrics.
Just need to cut out the obviously dumb shit like Jorgo's yellow. Or at least start with that. Low hanging fruit and all.
 

Dan54

Tim Horan (67)
Just need to cut out the obviously dumb shit like Jorgo's yellow. Or at least start with that. Low hanging fruit and all.
Or alternately , stop the players doing things that they earn yellows for?
Doesn't matter how I think, I don't want laws/rules changed bugger all. I have said it time again I would cut out time wasting, not by stopping clock etc (that doesn't prevent time wasting or help cause tiredness) but make players leave field for injury assesments, allow no waterboys on field(they want a drink run to sideline) . Perhaps cut ot so many subs. Geez we used to have no replacements at all (for injury or anything), so I sure we can make some rule to allow for headknocks etc and just limit them.
 

liquor box

Greg Davis (50)
Just need to cut out the obviously dumb shit like Jorgo's yellow. Or at least start with that. Low hanging fruit and all.
I think they need to look at what constitutes simultaneous, it should be what is visible at actual speed, not a frame by frame comparison. Make a judgement on real speed replays and interpret what you see.

At real speed I would not have given the penalty but frame by frame I would.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
I think they need to look at what constitutes simultaneous, it should be what is visible at actual speed, not a frame by frame comparison. Make a judgement on real speed replays and interpret what you see.

At real speed I would not have given the penalty but frame by frame I would.
But the ref did think it was a penalty try and said so when he sent it upstairs.
 

Pfitzy

George Gregan (70)
Doesn't matter how I think, I don't want laws/rules changed bugger all. I have said it time again I would cut out time wasting,

Numbers at lineout.

In terms of maximum result for minimum effort, easy fix. Throw it away - if you want to have more or less, I don't give a shit as a ref, but I'm forced to short arm it and create another pause in the game over and above the lineout itself.

That's like saying a team must line up equal numbers on the blind side and open side or be penalised.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
I think they need to look at what constitutes simultaneous, it should be what is visible at actual speed, not a frame by frame comparison. Make a judgement on real speed replays and interpret what you see.

At real speed I would not have given the penalty but frame by frame I would.

This is key for me. It was such a marginal decision that could have gone either way but the decision taken had huge consequences on the game.

I don't have an issue with the yellow card/penalty try combination in general. It is a harsh penalty but I think it is a valid part of the game. Teams need to be smarter about certain situations. If there's a maul steaming towards the try line don't dive under it to collapse it. If you've given away three 5m scrum penalties and you're scrum is on rollerskates, concede the pushover try.
 

Bullrush

John Hipwell (52)
Not exactly sure why we need another thread to discuss this article, I feel like we did it death over in the super rugby thread:
I posted my comment and then found all the discussion on it in the other thread... :D:D
 

Drew

Bob Davidson (42)
But the ref did think it was a penalty try and said so when he sent it upstairs.
Yes, but an almost simultaneous collision where the ball is unsighted to the offender compared to a flagrant professional foul? Penalty try? Sure, without Jorgensen tackling him, he would’ve scored. Yellow card? Questionable. Yes, the rules/laws say that is the sanction, but if we are discussing how to make the game more attractive then @Derpus has a point. If the decision went for my team, I’d have thought the opposition was dudded on the yellow, but not the penalty try.
 

Derpus

George Gregan (70)
I just can't understand why people are acting like this was a case of a 'pedantic TMO' interjecting after a try had already been awarded... Doleman had his concerns, which he asked to be checked, and were subsequently confirmed - the literal purpose of the TMO.
Its just a stupid outcome. I didn't say it was applied incorrectly.
 
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