What to look for in a No 10

[fatprop]

No ten is perfect, except maybe Dan Carter; the rest, you just make do and work around their weaknesses. Especially with Aus's smaller pool of quality units

 

[No4918]

I won't disagree that there are contradictions. I did note that it is a complicated topic. For all that Quade does have magic feet, he also has a sublime long pass. I'm pretty sure that its for his passing that he gravitated towards 5/8th. So, I do not agree with your assertion that he is trying to make the play himself all the time. The problem with Quade for me is that he overplays his hand, so to speak. He is always trying to do something special, be it himself or by some amazing pass. I've never met the guy, so I cannot say for sure, but he strikes me as an instinctive player who makes gut decisions and runs with them. I personally prefer a slightly more intellectual approach to the 5/8th position, I like to think that you have a bit of a thinker there who is treating the game like a game of chess: pushing the play one way, then the other, then kicking for the space that he has created behind the opposition line.

Quade did most of the things you just listed as things you like in a 10 with the Reds. Go back and watch the Stormers game to see just how good the tatical kicking ang field position play was.

He is instinctual but i also think he does have a lot of rugby smarts. Playing him with 2 defensive centres was a complete failure. Dingo didnt know what game plan he wanted and the more i think about his choice of centres the less i can believe that he persevered with it. They asked no questions of the defense at all. This did not help QCs game one bit. With an attacking centre pairing with any of Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor) and Horne this would alleviate a lot of the pressure in mid-field and free up QC (Quade Cooper). It would also bring players like Beale and Ioane into play more, they only ever seemed to get the ball on counter attack which isnt good enough.

Its easy to blame the 10 when things go bad but the bigger picture should be looked at as well. Selections, game plan and balance in the backs was woeful at times. This just reflects on the 10 more than the others for any team.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Quade did most of the things you just listed as things you like in a 10 with the Reds. Go back and watch the Stormers game to see just how good the tatical kicking ang field position play was.

He is instinctual but i also think he does have a lot of rugby smarts. Playing him with 2 defensive centres was a complete failure. Dingo didnt know what game plan he wanted and the more i think about his choice of centres the less i can believe that he persevered with it. They asked no questions of the defense at all. This did not help QCs game one bit. With an attacking centre pairing with any of Barnes, JOC (James O'Connor) and Horne this would alleviate a lot of the pressure in mid-field and free up QC (Quade Cooper). It would also bring players like Beale and Ioane into play more, they only ever seemed to get the ball on counter attack which isnt good enough.

Its easy to blame the 10 when things go bad but the bigger picture should be looked at as well. Selections, game plan and balance in the backs was woeful at times. This just reflects on the 10 more than the others for any team.

I see this as a structural issue in Aus rugby rather than being an issue about QC (Quade Cooper) or JOC (James O'Connor).
I think you make a valid point about the game plan.
It's not about how QC (Quade Cooper) plays for Queensland because (a) I'm not a queenslander and (b) s15 does not necessarily translate to tests.
We have to ask ourselves why we didn't have a 5/8 for the rebels in the wings. Guess we just don't have enough players: therefore we don't have the luxury of having 2 diferents steams of 5/8 as they do in NZ:
A stream:
Fox, mehrtens, carter, spade, cruden, Donald
B stream:
Spencer, Mcallister, toeava


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[James Buchanan]

We have to ask ourselves why we didn't have a 5/8 for the rebels in the wings. Guess we just don't have enough players

We did, they were just all on contract (mostly at the Brumbies).

 

[Bowside]

We have to ask ourselves why we didn't have a 5/8 for the rebels in the wings. Guess we just don't have enough players: therefore we don't have the luxury of having 2 diferents steams of 5/8 as they do in NZ:
A stream:
Fox, mehrtens, carter, spade, cruden, Donald
B stream:
Spencer, Mcallister, toeava

I think we have excellent depth at 10.

First stream:
Cooper, Barnes

Second Stream:
Giteau, Beale, JOC (James O'Connor)

Then we have guys like Lance, To'omua, Lucas, Stannard who are still young and could feasibly step in if needed. Keep in mind with what you posted Mehrtens and spencer are no longer around, and I would take our bloke over their bloke in every head to head apart from carter who is a class above them all.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think we have excellent depth at 10.

First stream:
Cooper, Barnes

Second Stream:
Giteau, Beale, JOC (James O'Connor)

Then we have guys like Lance, To'omua, Lucas, Stannard who are still young and could feasibly step in if needed. Keep in mind with what you posted Mehrtens and spencer are no longer around, and I would take our bloke over their bloke in every head to head apart from carter who is a class above them all.

Cooper is a stream B 5/8
Gitts is gone but he was more A than B
The ARU should be able to direct a player to go from brumbies to rebels so he gets game time in a relevant position.


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[Bowside]

Cooper is a stream B 5/8
Gitts is gone but he was more A than B
The ARU should be able to direct a player to go from brumbies to rebels so he gets game time in a relevant position.


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I agree with this but only to an extent. That being, if the player is developed by a province and is required by them, then their is no reason for the ARU to get involved. But last season the brumbies had far too many inside backs, to the point where a young former wallaby tourist who they poached from qld was often left out of the 22. At the very same time we had 2 other provinces struggling to field an aussie flyhalf. Likewise the brumbies where short on locks, whilst one of their good local products was on the otherside of the country with with force getting no game time behind sharpie and wykes.

But then you have to ask what could the ARU have done, the decisions often rest with the players?

 

[No4918]

To'omua would have been better off at the Rebels. Gits should never have been allowed to dictate where he wanted to play. In the end it cost To'omua a season of Super rugby. Really look forward to seeing more of him next season.

Cooper > Barnes > To'omua > the rest

Sorry to JOC (James O'Connor) fans but i see his best position definitely at 12 for the wallabies.

 

[Richo]

What's the obsession many have with trying to turn all our good playmakers / skill players into 5/8s?

JOC (James O'Connor) is a 12 and should be playing 12. Let's not turn him into the next Giteau, thanks.

Similarly, Beale is best suited to 15, where the space gives him the chance to make the most of his pace and stepping ability. Just because Bernie went from 15 to 10 doesn't mean Kurtley has to.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I agree with this but only to an extent. That being, if the player is developed by a province and is required by them, then their is no reason for the ARU to get involved. But last season the brumbies had far too many inside backs, to the point where a young former wallaby tourist who they poached from qld was often left out of the 22. At the very same time we had 2 other provinces struggling to field an aussie flyhalf. Likewise the brumbies where short on locks, whilst one of their good local products was on the otherside of the country with with force getting no game time behind sharpie and wykes.

But then you have to ask what could the ARU have done, the decisions often rest with the players?

I am under the impression that the NZRU can direct players to go to particular provinces- no idea how it works in practice


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[Rob42]

Ordering players from one state to another won't do anything to make Australian rugby more attractive for the players, compared to overseas offers. And who do you trust at the ARU to make the right call on moving players about?

Leave it up to the players - as long as they are keen to challenge for a Wallabies spot, they'll generally find the best opportunity for themselves.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Ordering players from one state to another won't do anything to make Australian rugby more attractive for the players, compared to overseas offers. And who do you trust at the ARU to make the right call on moving players about?

Leave it up to the players - as long as they are keen to challenge for a Wallabies spot, they'll generally find the best opportunity for themselves.

But they don't know who else their franchise has signed in their position.
If the want to play for the wallabies it will make a huge difference if only because they will be able to get out of a contract which is preventing them leaving the province they signed with if the cards don't fall correctly.
If a bloke wants $$$ you won't stop him going OS whatever structure you have.


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[Bowside]

I am under the impression that the NZRU can direct players to go to particular provinces- no idea how it works in practice


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I'm also under that impression.

I dont however think that just because the game is now professional you have to make decisions that fly in the face of pride and history. I still want to see a reds team made of (mostly) queenslanders, and likewise with the other states. I think it adds a little something extra to the contest and makes for better more endearing spectacle.

Obviously this is not possible for all the provinces, and as such the best players that are not needed should look for opportunities elsewhere. But I dont know how much you really want the ARU dictating terms, because its a good idea in principal, but when does the aru ever do things well?

 

[Bullrush]

I am under the impression that the NZRU can direct players to go to particular provinces- no idea how it works in practice


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No....I'm pretty sure they can't. As one would expect, most players go to where they will get the most or best a) money b) playing time c) opportunity to play for the All Blacks.

 

[Running Rugby]

The skills needed to be a successful 10 depend very much on the style of game your team decides to play.
I remember when Larkham was moved from fullback to fly half the rationale behind the move was primarily he was a great runner in traffic. At that stage I don't believe he was known as a great ball player but as history shows he developed those skills quickly.
My belief is a fly half needs to be able to control the game. He must know when and where to play the options. This skill generally only comes with experience. One of Quade's great downfalls in the test arena has been his inability to control the depth he plays at. He gets too flat on defensive ball and often too deep on attacking ball. I attribute much of this to a decline in confidence.
Barnes seems to be a good option taker but plays far too deep on attacking ball for my liking meaning defensive teams don't feel threatened by him.
I think young fly-halfs need mentors to discuss game management with regularly and I think Australian rugby needs to develop a mentor system quickly to improve our levels of fly-half play.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

I think your larkham story is a tad romanticized.
He was a reserve back in Melbourne in 1997.
The cupboard was bare of 5/8s so Horan was playing there against the blackness.
Horan broke his thumb and came off.
Larkham had to play 5/8 because he and Sam Payne were the only back reserves for that game.
He played the previous 3 games at FB in Burkes absence.
Knox played for most of the rest of 1997 except that Flatley was picked once they got to Europe. Knox's last test was in Argentina in 97.
From the first test in 98 I think larkham was the encumbent.
The rest is history.


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[I like to watch]

Ingredients for a 10?

1 Quade
add 2 tablespoons of starch
1 teaspoon valium
the top 2 inches of Berrick Barnes

 

[barbarian]

the top 2 inches of Berrick Barnes

What, his paper-thin skull? Hmmm, not so sure about that.

 

[hammertimethere]

outstanding

 

[Patto.]

DC controls the game behind a go forward pack. When we have that luxury we can have a DC type, Until then we need a player like QC (Quade Cooper) that can create something from very little. Giving him a 12 & 13 with attacking qualities will make him more effective. JOC (James O'Connor) and Horne would be ideal.