Where to for Twiggy Rugby?

[Forcefield]

So how many of the Force's squad have come from the Shute Shield? As far as I can work out, only one so far. I hardly think many from the Shute Shield are going to prop up the other 5 teams. The Pacific Islanders have their own talent- as have Japan- and there is also scope for South Africans, Europeans and New Zealanders to be recruited. I'd be surprised if more than a dozen Shute Shield players end up getting picked up by teams. I think you are much, much more likely to find players who were potentially "lost" to Australian rugby returning for another shot (e.g. Cameron Orr, Andrew Deegan).

 

[brokendown]

bugger off ,TOCC-you are causing wamberal to splutter into his pimms

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Interesting that with squad selected for the Force that it appears not quite Super Rugby quality but then again does it really have to be with teams competing/planned. It is going to be interesting to see how this all unfolds. For example, Sunwolves are just unfortunately not competitive enough in Super Rugby but maybe they could be in World Series comp (which I understand replaced name of Indo pacific comp) as end of the day people want good rugby but also competitive rugby and not watch thrashings. Japan has so much going for it with audiences they generate, and money behind them and just need to solve on-field issues (read: not competitive against Super Rugby sides) and hence yes may well be better fit in Twiggy ball.

Asia important market and hence hopeful Twiggy ball can provide a successful launching pad into Asia and indeed some more professional content for me to watch with aussie teams /players involved as current Super Rugby showing starved of content with no Oz teams often playing in civilised peak viewing times on Friday and Saturday night..

 

[wamberal]

How dare Twiggy offer players an opportunity to earn more money playing the sport they love..

Not quite the point I was countering, my prolific friend. I was countering the point that somehow this would result in more growth.

 

[wamberal]

bugger off ,TOCC-you are causing wamberal to splutter into his pimms

I have been upbraided by far, far, cleverer people, my little friend. And I have not had a Pimms since I first lived in Hong Kong, and a few of us went out on a junk trip every Sunday, fuelled by a full, icy, pitcher of the stuff.

 

[TOCC]

Not quite the point I was countering, my prolific friend. I was countering the point that somehow this would result in more growth.

Yep and I was countering by pointing out that it will result in more growth of positions for those who want to play rugby professionally..

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Not quite the point I was countering, my prolific friend. I was countering the point that somehow this would result in more growth.

From a long term perspective I totally disagree as you want more kids playing rugby and eventually more players playing in shute shield etc you want more professional opportunities and professional content. I didn't think that was actually very hard to understand.

 

[wamberal]

From a long term perspective I totally disagree as you want more kids playing rugby and eventually more players playing in shute shield etc you want more professional opportunities and professional content. I didn't think that was actually very hard to understand.

I can understand the point that was being made. However, if you actually think about this a bit, you might discover the possibility of unforeseen consequences.


For example, some of our SS clubs are struggling at the moment. What happens if a few good Penrith or Parramatta players, for example, are enticed to play a season for Twiggy? Will their absence be filled easily? Or will that kill the clubs?


Trickle down economics works in theory. But markets, whether for rugby players or anything else, are rarely "perfect".


Shoving a few bucks into a system that is just hanging together at the moment, might work wonders, or it might not, because it skims the cream away. Excuse my scepticism, maybe I have been around a bit longer and seen a bit more than most of you Twiggy fans.

 

[Boof1050]

Wamberal why do keep thinking that Twiggy will be interested in a bunch of players from the shute shield? I'm pretty sure from all the press conferences he's stated that he'll be trying to lure back international players and local players from each region to fill the gaps. The Shute Shield may be the be all to end all but it ain't no international competition.

 

[Braveheart81]

Would the Shute Shield actually be stronger if there weren't professional rugby opportunities now?

My assumption would be no, it would be the complete opposite and rugby would be completely dead in Australia.

The biggest thing that attracts elite players to the game is the professional opportunities. Take them away and people pursue different sports.

Australian rugby thrived in the amateur era because it was a game that was very strongly played in the private schools and there was a substantial level of privilege involved to be able to pursue it at the highest level. People needed other careers and to get to that position for most required plenty of support. If you needed to provide for your family when you finished school was rugby really something you could spend a lot of time pursuing?

The game going professional levelled the playing field because it meant that talented players didn't have to give it up or just play club rugby on the weekend because they had to get a job. It is a career in its own right and a very attractive one to those who can get there.

 

[James Pettifer]

Would the Shute Shield actually be stronger if there weren't professional rugby opportunities now?

My assumption would be no, it would be the complete opposite and rugby would be completely dead in Australia.

The biggest thing that attracts elite players to the game is the professional opportunities. Take them away and people pursue different sports.

Australian rugby thrived in the amateur era because it was a game that was very strongly played in the private schools and there was a substantial level of privilege involved to be able to pursue it at the highest level. People needed other careers and to get to that position for most required plenty of support. If you needed to provide for your family when you finished school was rugby really something you could spend a lot of time pursuing?

The game going professional levelled the playing field because it meant that talented players didn't have to give it up or just play club rugby on the weekend because they had to get a job. It is a career in its own right and a very attractive one to those who can get there.

If you only count SuperRugby as currently professional (ie enough to make a living on noting that you have a shortened career) then there are currently about 130 available positions in Australia. There are 707 listed players in the AFL of which 372 earned over $300k and 135 over $500k (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2018-02-22/player-payments-revealed-millionaires-on-the-up). If you are looking for a career as a sportsman and have the opportunity to choose between games, then AFL is a hell of a lot easier to be successful in due to the sheer number of available positions.

 

[Braveheart81]

If you are looking for a career as a sportsman and have the opportunity to choose between games, then AFL is a hell of a lot easier to be successful in due to the sheer number of available positions.

We're looking at pretty different demographics for that at the moment though.

The AFL isn't really competing for NZ and PI players.

In the AFL states cricket has definitely been a big loser to AFL because of those professional opportunities available. It should change a little now that state players are paid so well but it is still far less positions than the AFL has.

There are plenty of AFL draft picks over the last decade or so who were state level junior cricketers.

 

[Boof1050]

We're looking at pretty different demographics for that at the moment though.

The AFL isn't really competing for NZ and PI players.

In the AFL states cricket has definitely been a big loser to AFL because of those professional opportunities available. It should change a little now that state players are paid so well but it is still far less positions than the AFL has.

There are plenty of AFL draft picks over the last decade or so who were state level junior cricketers.

I'm pretty sure that the Melbourne rugby people as well as us sand gropers who could name quite a few young guys out of the drafts who were awesome young rugby players that got lost through the system or grew disillusioned with the rugby system and thought jam it I'll go play AFL.

 

[Braveheart81]

I'm pretty sure that the Melbourne rugby people as well as us sand gropers who could name quite a few young guys out of the drafts who were awesome young rugby players that got lost through the system or grew disillusioned with the rugby system and thought jam it I'll go play AFL.

How late in their teens did that remain the case though? They're obviously pretty specialised sports and are on at the same time of year so it's hard to continue both once you're passed about age 14.

There's been a number of AFL players who were state cricketers at 18 or 19. Alex Keath was the only one who passed on AFL to pursue a cricket career and even he has ditched cricket to go back to AFL now.

 

[Bandar]

What happens if a few good Penrith or Parramatta players, for example, are enticed to play a season for Twiggy? Will their absence be filled easily? Or will that kill the clubs?.

Would other local juniors see a potential to a professional career and want it at those clubs?

But in all seriousness there is not going to be anybody currently playing for either of those clubs being picked up - if they had players with that potential the other clubs would have already recruited them...

 

[TOCC]

I can understand the point that was being made. However, if you actually think about this a bit, you might discover the possibility of unforeseen consequences.


For example, some of our SS clubs are struggling at the moment. What happens if a few good Penrith or Parramatta players, for example, are enticed to play a season for Twiggy? Will their absence be filled easily? Or will that kill the clubs?


Trickle down economics works in theory. But markets, whether for rugby players or anything else, are rarely "perfect".


Shoving a few bucks into a system that is just hanging together at the moment, might work wonders, or it might not, because it skims the cream away. Excuse my scepticism, maybe I have been around a bit longer and seen a bit more than most of you Twiggy fans.

I can see Penrith and Two Blues fans bemused by this comment. Shute Shield isn’t exactly the bearers of standards when it comes to protecting the interest of the less fortunate clubs and organisations.

Parra and Penrith already lose a few good players every single year, and that’s to the other Shute Shield clubs. Is this a case of trickle down economics? or rather a case of players chasing the opportunity to play at a more professional organisation, and for some earn a few dollars in the process?

I understand your concern, but you’re playing to the populist argument with the whole “won’t someone think of Parramatta/Penrith”. If that were truly a concern of SS types then it would have been addressed years ago. You’re actual concern is the impact this will have on the Eastwoods/Marlins of the competition.

And, I think there will be a bit of an impact on the clubs, some players will chase the opportunity. But the trade off is more progressional pathways for Australian players, and I think you need to better consider the trade off between the two.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Would the Shute Shield actually be stronger if there weren't professional rugby opportunities now?

My assumption would be no, it would be the complete opposite and rugby would be completely dead in Australia.

The biggest thing that attracts elite players to the game is the professional opportunities. Take them away and people pursue different sports.

Australian rugby thrived in the amateur era because it was a game that was very strongly played in the private schools and there was a substantial level of privilege involved to be able to pursue it at the highest level. People needed other careers and to get to that position for most required plenty of support. If you needed to provide for your family when you finished school was rugby really something you could spend a lot of time pursuing?

The game going professional levelled the playing field because it meant that talented players didn't have to give it up or just play club rugby on the weekend because they had to get a job. It is a career in its own right and a very attractive one to those who can get there.

Thanks that was basically my point but which you have taken the time to spell out and explain it more eloquently.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Forcefield]

How late in their teens did that remain the case though? They're obviously pretty specialised sports and are on at the same time of year so it's hard to continue both once you're passed about age 14.

There's been a number of AFL players who were state cricketers at 18 or 19. Alex Keath was the only one who passed on AFL to pursue a cricket career and even he has ditched cricket to go back to AFL now.

Jason Johannison. Came to Perth from Joburg aged 8. Switched to AFL from union in teens just as Force came in. Norm Smith medallist 2016.

 

[wamberal]

For the record, and given that I cannot be bothered reading all the posts (and therefore might be answering the wrong point), I said nothing against professionalism per se.


I did posit an argument against the infusion of outside money into an existing (professional) system, but only because there might be some unintended consequences.


Perhaps this is too subtle a point.

 

[James Pettifer]

We're looking at pretty different demographics for that at the moment though.

The AFL isn't really competing for NZ and PI players.

In the AFL states cricket has definitely been a big loser to AFL because of those professional opportunities available. It should change a little now that state players are paid so well but it is still far less positions than the AFL has.

There are plenty of AFL draft picks over the last decade or so who were state level junior cricketers.

The obvious ones are Hunt and Folau.

In 5 minutes on google (and avoiding the paywalls)

• Nick Price - https://www.theroar.com.au/2008/10/17/rugby-codes-losing-the-elite-athlete-battle-to-football-afl/
• Connor Ballenden - http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-04-21/kiwi-prospect-set-to-shine
• Tom Jeffries (Sam's brother) - http://www.afl.com.au/news/2016-11-23/roos-pluck-ruck-prospect-from-rugby-union
• Jack Hiscox - https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/n...t/news-story/88ff5acfe76a80edbbd80b04a97d26c1