Where to for Super Rugby?

[Brumby Runner]

Just out of interest, someone on ROAR has written an interesting idea for going forward where he suggest Aus cut's to 2 Super team Tahs and Reds, and rest join a 7 team semi pro comp with Reds and Tahs 'juniors' (see B's). It a pretty interesting concept to say the least and all about building the Wallabies etc. I haven't really got my head around it all, but it interesting once again to see how minds are working to come up with what they think is the betterment of Aus rugby!!

Dan, ever heard the saying "shit for brains"? Whoever put that idea up must be the personification of that situation.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Ok, I will take your word BR, I just think it quite a step up from NRC to Super level teams with international players in them, and even in Aus conference to we want blow out scores?? Hey they maybe better than I think and would be real pleased if they were, but even if they do scrape through this year I hope there a bit of buying next season to strengthen them. Or do you think they will be competitive in a Super comp, perhaps if Aus only conference going forward, we could make Reds, Brumbies etc send some of their players over there to even out comp?? I know it a stupid idea but hey if we want NZ to do same?.....

And by the way I really hope Force are back in any comp going forward, regardless of the shit time they play!!

I really think the Force would need to recruit to strengthen their roster next year and beyond, if it goes that way. I'm just saying I don't think they will be necessarily uncompetitive against one or two of the other Aus Super teams this year.

 

[Brumby Runner]

OMFG Bumbreeze Runner is going to have a heart attack in his fucking brain when he sees this post.

DP, thanks for your concern. I am most hopeful though that I will survive any heart attack in the brain better than the idea proposer will survive the drowning in shit on the brain they must be going through to post such an idea.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Yep WCR, exactly what I talking about, I not suggesting they shouldn't be in it, but they need to buy some talent!! Actually I think perhaps some of Jaguares would be great to look at in any super teams if they are going to be left with noone to play!

And the reality is the force have what many could only dream of which is big financial backer who is also very entrepreneurial to find solutions - I would not be concerned about the ability of force to field a competitive team for what ever new comp they would enter

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Yep WCR, but I thought it was interesting idea anyway, don't really think I agreed with it. For one thing that wouldn't get set up (and probably the same with most comps involving new countries) for 2-3 years, and in the meantime you need something to keep rugby public and TV engaged.

Yeah. I actually think going with the proposed 12 team league would be easier to set up in a shorter time frame. Many of the teams essentially already exist. I still think that if NZ were going to go down that path then maybe instead of going to 7 teams they could look to go to just 6 and bring in the Force. Then, from there do as I thought was probably the better option in terms of including the likes of Argentina in the first place and that being opening up a number of squad spots.

In fact, I suggested that one of the options for Aus Rugby was to look to set up a single entity league seeking to attract Private Equity not in any one team but the league as a whole and then open up an draft system where players could preference teams but in the case of Australian and New Zealand talent the respective clubs in both nations would have first choice on domestic talent. While international players focusing primarily on Argnetines and Sth Africans would be open to every clubs to fill X number of designated roster spots.

The only exception would be the Fijian/Pasifika team. Which would have first choice of any and all PI talent who declare eligibility for either nation. So essentially. We'd have 7 nations of talent concentrated into 12 teams.

 

[KOB1987]

Dan, ever heard the saying "shit for brains"? Whoever put that idea up must be the personification of that situation.

Obviously it makes no sense to leave the Brumbies out as it stands now, however his model in principle is not a bad concept and the article is worth a read. There is no reason for the two ‘top’ sides to be called Qld and NSW though, and there feasibly could be three teams in the main comp. He’s obviously done his homework.

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/05/02/australian-rugby-a-blueprint-for-the-future/

 

[Rugbynutter39]

OMFG Bumbreeze Runner is going to have a heart attack in his fucking brain when he sees this post.

I actually think this sounds like a good idea in principle but think 3 teams including brumbies (there you BR you don’t have to put a contract out on me) with them a semi pro comp below with relegation / promotion playoff every say x years - ok this is random and logistically not well thought through on promotion / relegation but hey others paid the big bucks can work out that

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I was always against reducing pro teams but if we 3 pro team and have a semi pro comp as per what outlined with nrc 7 I could almost accept this as better option given where we are at

 

[Dan54]

Dan, ever heard the saying "shit for brains"? Whoever put that idea up must be the personification of that situation.

Well I have to admit as I said I didn't see it being very good, but would think he probably thought it out as much as some of the ideas we see in here. There sure to be more yet!!

 

[Joe King]

Okay. So I've read the piece. Frankly I'd prefer the 12 team model with the Pasifika team with 4 Aus teams. Would make more sense in my opinion.

If you add the Brumbies to his Pro Pac idea, there's not a lot of difference between the two, at least as a concept.

 

[Joe King]

Dan, ever heard the saying "shit for brains"? Whoever put that idea up must be the personification of that situation.

I'm actually really warming to his proposal, with the only tweak being possibly adding the Brumbies to his Pacific Pro idea instead of the NRC 7. The rest of it actually makes a lot of sense overall.

 

[Joe King]

The main thing that many Australian rugby fans really want is more of a domestic presence, whether it be through a stand alone domestic comp, or a TT comp, or a combination of the two with some sort of champions league. We look at what the AFL and NRL have, and we want something like that - even if it’s only the beginnings of it.

What if we could have that, but just not yet?

Here’s the thing: if we try and go it alone right now, would we really be able to afford to keep our best players in Australia, or would we lose them to o/s or even to league at an earlier stage? And if we did lose them, and the Wallabies went further downhill, would we really be able to win people over through a domestic comp, or would it be even less attractive than the A-league? I know we want to believe it will work and take the risk, but remember, if it doesn’t pay off, it won’t be easy to come back from that.

Yes, I know, Super Rugby was failing to keep our best players here anyway, so we need to move on from that. But here we are talking about a TT comp because we know the broadcasters will pay more for it, and we know that if we went it alone, any PI or Japanese teams would sooner link with the NZ teams than with the Australian ones.

But the thing to remember about a TT comp is that we don’t have the player depth to have more than 3-4 competitive teams. With 5 teams, our teams are not going to be competitive enough to attract new fans (even 4 is a stretch). Remember crowds for S12 were basically increasing until 2004-2005 before it expanded to S14. That’s when they started to decline, and have been declining ever since. So it can be argued, it’s not just playing in SA that has lost the crowds, but the (overall) decrease in competitive standards. It’s no longer the best vs the best.

And we need to get out of our heads the desire for NZR to pick test players from Australian teams to allow Australia to have at least 5 competitive teams. It's not going to happen. NZR would rather go it alone than this idea. The current set up has served NZ so well, they’re not going to change it. The AB’s have never been more dominant. And remember what Paul Cully said: NZ are not so much a rugby-mad country as they are an AB-mad country. AB’s come first. NZ people will never forgive NZR for changing a winning formula.

This is why I really like this proposal:

https://www.theroar.com.au/2020/05/02/australian-rugby-a-blueprint-for-the-future/

The only tweaks I would possibly make are to include the Brumbies in his Pacific Pro idea instead of his NRC 7, and possibly explore including a team or two from GRR in his NRC 7 idea.

But his Pacific Pro idea is like the TT comp idea, but better quality, with stronger Australian teams, and a stronger Wallabies resulting from it. Remember the Wallabies really are the one team that can win fans to rugby, and produce lots of revenue if they are more competitive and start winning trophies again (e.g. 1998-2003).

And this is the key to having a pro domestic comp in Australia. If the Wallabies can start to win again, then it becomes a lot easier to build a pro comp off the back of his NRC 7 idea.

Until then, his proposal allows us to fund rugby in Australia, better retain our best players, build the foundations of pro-domestic comp through the NRC 7, win more often at Wallabies and tier two levels, and start to reclaim the rugby heart-lands in Australia.

Yes, I know, this is the whole top-down approach all over again. But it doesn’t have to be a bad thing. Remember, this is the same approach as NZ and they don’t neglect the grassroots. And that’s because neglecting the grassroots is a governance/structural problem in Australia, not a Wallabies-first approach problem in Australia.

And with his proposal, NSW and Qld are going to be more likely to support the governance/structural changes we need, because this proposal is good for them at every level of the game.

So I think it’s a proposal well worth reading and thinking about. And his comments interacting with others are also worth reading.

 

[wamberal]

Makes a lot of sense. Will never happen.

 

[KOB1987]

MDiddy should rock up to RA with his proposal and his doco when he’s finished it.

The variation I would make would be not to call the two top sides NSW and Qld. Rather, to begin with amalgamate the Reds and Waratahs players and call them the Northern somethings, and the Brumbies and Rebels players and call them the Southern somethings. The former play all their home games out of NSW and Qld, and the latter out of ACT and Vic. Note this is not a merging of franchises, these are new fully professional outfits.

Next, scrap what he is calling the Junior Waratahs and Junior Reds, and simply call them the Waratahs and Reds. The rest of the NRC 7 (semi pro comp) is as per his proposal except i’d find an 8th team. The players in the two pro teams are spread evenly over the Aussie NRC teams, as close to their origins as is practical.

 

[Ignoto]

amalgamate the Reds and Waratahs players and call them the Northern somethings, and the Brumbies and Rebels players and call them the Southern somethings. The former play all their home games out of NSW and Qld, and the latter out of ACT and Vic.

Uh, how is this beneficial to the game and engagement of fans? This proposal means the team you're following will only play once every 4 weeks at your local venue.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

Gees I am looking forward to hopefully hearing plans for domestic comp next week muted to be kicking off June/July - hopefully is 6 team comp involving also Sunwolves to allow for 3 games per week. Cut Foxtel but ready to sign up to kayo to watch this if and when gets going.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I get frustrated when we talk of only being able to field 3 teams in TT comp as obvious answer is to allow for players who play for any team in TT comp still eligible for their national teams. This is the sensible long term solution to grow the game in this region which is why twiggy knowing this wanted oz players playing for any rapid rugby sides still eligible for wallabies. Ie followed the same notion that need to spread the talent to make even and interesting competition.

Hence if nz refuse to budge on this i would prefer we work with twiggy on Asian pac competition on same basis of any oz players playing for any team in this competition eligible for the wallabies

 

[formerflanker]

Sitting behind all proposals is the public's desire to watch a great contest, not just the great skills of elite players.
In the grand scheme of things, there isn't much between the skill level of the 2019 Super players and the skill levels of those in the train on squads.
Assuming that theory to be true, any new structure must match teams of similar abilities.
Blown out scorelines, one way traffic to the tryline, and always-dominant forward packs lead to poor spectacles.
That probably requires any new structures to restrict the number of teams to about 6.

 

[KOB1987]

Uh, how is this beneficial to the game and engagement of fans? This proposal means the team you're following will only play once every 4 weeks at your local venue.

No it doesn’t, the Reds for example in your case, or Qld Country, would be your team that you support week in week out. The amalgamated team is essentially a rep team which you’d support like you did Qld in the old days. It just takes a bit of getting your head around the concept, like I did during the night. Have you read the Roar article? You need to to understand my post.

 

[Ignoto]

No it doesn’t, the Reds for example in your case, or Qld Country, would be your team that you support week in week out. The amalgamated team is essentially a rep team which you’d support like you did Qld in the old days. It just takes a bit of getting your head around the concept, like I did during the night. Have you read the Roar article? You need to to understand my post.

I've read the Roar article and your proposal of condensing 4 teams into 2. But tell me what I'm missing as a Queensland fan living in Brisbane. Under your idea of combining the Queensland and NSW elite teams, how can I expect to see more than 1 'top level' game a month?

Using the proposed competitions that the Roar article has mentioned, but incorporating the combined QLD/NSW team. I, a simple fan of the game, would have to follow the 'Pacific Pro 10' competition, where I get to watch my combined team. I then have to follow a 'Qld Country' team in the 'NRC 7' who will need to share games in Brisbane, around Queensland and around the nation.

Remember, the Pacific Pro 10 runs from February to July and the NRC 7 March to July.

It's too convoluted. How can you honestly expect someone from outside the game to know what's going on with two separate competitions running at the same time.

But perhaps I'm just not seeing something.