Shute Shield 2011

[en_force_er]

I think it would be entirely possible, taking into account it's only 3 hours drive and the Canberra team would only be one senior side (and MAYBE a colts teams) you could fixture the games earlier then usual (say 1 oclock) and the Sydney blokes could be back home by 6.

Renting a bus to go to Canberra ONCE a season wouldn't be a huge cost, the real issue would be whether the Canberra fellows are willing to put their weight behind it.

 

[Rothschild]

As I understand it from a 'person of knowledge', the plan is not for an individual club but for a combined team representing ACT.
Past performances by Vikings have not been successful in Sydney however they did wipe the Brisbane floor, which does in a way highlite the differences between the Welsby Cup and the Shute Shild.
It would appear any representation from the ACT will mostly be comprised of Brumbie players/academy not on S15 duty, giving them the experience of Shute Shield yet not having to be alligned with a Sydney club.
I think it would benefit the ACT and we might see some of the Brumbie players already alligned to Sydney clubs moving their duties to the new ACT team. Toohma, hand, Alexander could all now stay located in Canberra and I would think in a short time become a reasonable performing outfit. Andy Friend is very committed to developing ACT rugby and this could do wonders for the area's rugby.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Why should Sydney RU (and the TNSS clubs) help to develop ACT rugby, particularly when the players being developed will be used against their parent union (The Mighty 'Tahs) on representative duties?

 

[Bowside]

Why should Sydney RU (and the TNSS clubs) help to develop ACT rugby, particularly when the players being developed will be used against their parent union (The Mighty 'Tahs) on representative duties?

Because the inclusion of one or two ACT based clubs would raise the standard of rugby in this country.

I dont like the fact that the SRU is now running the shute shield. If anything it should be handed to the ARU with a view to expansion across nsw and act, maybe even a Melbourne team now as well.

 

[Rothschild]

Because the inclusion of one or two ACT based clubs would raise the standard of rugby in this country.
I dont like the fact that the SRU is now running the shute shield. If anything it should be handed to the ARU with a view to expansion across nsw and act, maybe even a Melbourne team now as well.

Looking at the big picture for sure.
For too long the Sydney based clubs have selfishly twarted efforts for a proper national competition and the ARU should take over all the major premier comps and it would be a great starting point for a new competition in years to come.
So long as Sydney RU rule the NSW roost club rugby and any move to nationalism is dead.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

As I understand it from a 'person of knowledge', the plan is not for an individual club but for a combined team representing ACT.
Past performances by Vikings have not been successful in Sydney however they did wipe the Brisbane floor, which does in a way highlite the differences between the Welsby Cup and the Shute Shild.
It would appear any representation from the ACT will mostly be comprised of Brumbie players/academy not on S15 duty, giving them the experience of Shute Shield yet not having to be alligned with a Sydney club.
I think it would benefit the ACT and we might see some of the Brumbie players already alligned to Sydney clubs moving their duties to the new ACT team. Toohma, hand, Alexander could all now stay located in Canberra and I would think in a short time become a reasonable performing outfit. Andy Friend is very committed to developing ACT rugby and this could do wonders for the area's rugby.

My big concern would be what will this mean for the lesser clubs in the Shield? I'm all for the idea and actually think it needs to look toward establishing such a set up. It's just how many teams would be considered too many?

 

[Rothschild]

My big concern would be what will this mean for the lesser clubs in the Shield? I'm all for the idea and actually think it needs to look toward establishing such a set up. It's just how many teams would be considered too many?

20.
No really, if the ARU get their act together they could gradually do what was done with the original NRL by gradual expansion of the competition to include teams from other regions and the gradual culling of those clubs that really can't support such activity.
For example, in 2011 include an ACT team, then in subsequent years bring in say a Melbourne team then say Gold Coast, Nth Brisbane and Sth Brisbane and maybe relegate the last two Sydney teams in the Shield. Then maybe a Perth side and possible a NQ side and so on until I would say 50% of teams in the Shield are Sydney based and the rest are Australian regional.
An ARC by stealth I would call it, but it will NEVER happen so long as the SRU and a couple of self interested clubs control the competition. The same in Brisbane; they must be basically forced into a bigger pocture scenario wherby the local club comp (Welsby Cup) ceases to be the main competition and takes on a secondary role to the main National Shield competition..

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I agree with the sentiments of what many of the previous posters are proposing. While the SRU, or NSWRU for that matter is running the Shute Shield, the balance of power is with the Sydney District Clubs, exercised in a loose cooperative relationship with the SRU (or NSWRU).

Any move to genuinely include ACT and possible a Melbourne team (or a Newcastle or central coast team) will be to the detriment of one or more of the existing old boys powerbase - the 12 Sydney District Clubs. While the power remains with the District clubs, there will be no change to their composition particularly if it means one of the old crew is going to disappear to Suburban club level or be forced to amalgamate to remain at TNSS level.

Shades of how Mungoball was in the early 80's when all power resided in the Sydney clubs Winfield Cup competition. Life was easy then for the Club administrators. No travel beyond metropolitan limits.

It will take ARU and a shitload of $ to force change through to the TNSS clubs. After the debacle of the ARC, I do not believe that ARU have the money, inclination, sponsors,or forecast cashflow to force a effective nationalisation of club rugby in the same manner that mungoland achieved in the mid-late 80's and 90's.

This nationalisation of a minority sport, best enjoyed at a suburban oval with 2000 likeminded others, would almost kill many of the existing tribal clubs along with their support base. It would take a generation to change this. ARU do not have pockets deep enough to force this change through.

 

[Rothschild]

With the rise of the AFL, A-League and the continuing popularity of the mungo ball code, if the ARu do not force an elemtary change across the board, then rugby will slide further. Many of us remember the 60's and 70's where rugby was very much a minority game. It is still so but even in order to maintain its current level of support change is not only needed it is almost mandatory.
Change or die.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

A slight divagation from the TNSS discussion but in earlier this year, the New South Wales Rugby Union commissioned Mr KA Garling (a Sydney Barrister) to conduct a review of junior Rugby in Sydney.

The terms of reference for "The Garling Report" covered the status and structure of teams, competitions and player pathways within Sydney Junior Rugby Union, the SJRU Constitution, the roles and responsibilitys of clubs/zones/districts, competition structure and managagement, staffing structure and reporting lines and the development framework and strategies of community Rugby.

It makes for ivery ntersting reading, and Mr Garling is to be congratulated for his work. It has not been met with universal acclaim within the heirarchy. For further reading (if you are interested) follow these links:
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=xEfdPIVvvNA%3d&tabid=364 for the Report
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=eUHbLA50XNg%3d&tabid=364 for a letter from NSWRU to NSWJRU
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=kfmVZRnuTYw%3d&tabid=364 for the NSWRU Board's Position on the Garling Report.
http://www.nswrugby.com.au/NSWRugby/Competitions/Juniors.aspx More source information

The Garling Report addresses many of the systemic issues that need addressing within JO'N's empire. What is happening within juniordom sooner or later impacts on TNSS.

I also suspect that the issues raised by Mr Garling may be transferrable to other State Unions and their juniors.

The future Wallabies were running aroung ovals last winter as part of the village club scene. Ignore them at your peril JO'N.

 

[Drew]

I think the Sydney clubs, along with possibly the Canberra and Brisbane ones, have too many teams (1st through 4th opens and down to 3rds in colts) to warrant such an expansion. If this was to be for real maybe the top two opens and top colts maybe would travel, or possibly just the 1sts for monies sake. The lower grades would play amongst themselves in their respective cities.

It also would seem necessary for the teams to bring at least a set of reserves, which would further dilute the talent left at home. That being said, I think it would go a long way towards alleviating the disparity some teams feel at finals time in the Sydney comp where they have teams playing in the finals and backing up as reserves in the above grade.

Also, if it was to be viable I think (with the emphasis on I think) some clubs would have to merge/pool talent. In the NRL, the Tigers are pretty much embraced by former Tigers and Magpie supporters, some clubs would have to take this option at the upper tier of the comp while maintaining teams in the local comp.

 

[Drew]

Did I just describe the ARC?

 

[Hugh Jarse]

close enough.

Theory and reality. 'twill not happen unfortunately.

My glass is 1/2 empty.

 

[FTS]

Can anyone shed light on Parramatta's recruits? How many players did Glenn bring up from canberra with him?

 

[lily]

None. Why would the Brumbies send any players to the 2Blues to be mauled. Also this talk of a Canberra team is surely ridiculous as is the National comp comments. Both have been tried, both have failed, let's talk Shute Shield not let's fix Aussie Rugby. Finally go the Emu's.

 

[Rothschild]

1. The Brumbies do not send players anywhere. It is the players who make the decision as to which club they play,
2. The talk of a Canberra team in the Shute shield is not a fix for Aus rugby, it's just the way the conversation evolved. It is however currently being heavily discussed in the right circles and would be a benefit to the ACT rugby. It is NOT Vikings or any oher club entering BUT a combined ACT team and from my source it is only waiting the final OK from JON or whoever gives these things final approval.

 

[lily]

Christian Lealiifano was directed by the Brumbies in 2009 to stay in Canberra and play in the John Dent Cup so he could spend more time with Andy Friend in Canberra. Finally it is hard enough for the likes of Penrith, Parramatta and Norths to beat Australia's 6th Super Team. So I have no idea why it would be in any clubs best interest to allow a ACT representative team to play in the Shute Shield.

 

[Rothschild]

Christian Lealiifano was directed by the Brumbies in 2009 to stay in Canberra and play in the John Dent Cup so he could spend more time with Andy Friend in Canberra. Finally it is hard enough for the likes of Penrith, Parramatta and Norths to beat Australia's 6th Super Team. So I have no idea why it would be in any clubs best interest to allow a ACT representative team to play in the Shute Shield.

Christian was asked not directed, the same as academy players there are encouraged to play in the ACT and not Sydney, but it is their choice not the Brumbies. Many Brumbie players play in Sydney and a number choose to stay in the ACT. Andy Friend is committed to developing the ACT competition and making it stronger and by having a combined team in the Shute Shield, which would not necessarily be all Brumbies - it would strengthen ACT rugby.
Lastly, the comment on why would any team allow it - that is a great example of why rugby is being stiffled in Australia where clubs are calling the tune on who plays where instead of the ARU having the balls to start determining the playing structures of the various competitions.
The Sydney clubs were a great reason the ARC failed (other than financial) and they still continue to thwart any real effort of expansion and improvement just so they can maintain their status in their own sheltered environment.
The sooner control of the Shute Shield, Welsby Cup and all major competitions are wrestled from the clubs and given to the ARU the better.

 

[lily]

Directed should be seen as encouraged. Finally I respect your opinion so I dont want to get into a slanging match over something that will probably not eventuate. That said I dont agree with your belief that it was the Sydney clubs fault that the ill conceived ARC fell through and also that the ARU should be given control of the club scene. I dont understand why the Sydney clubs should be forced to help the Brumbies by developing their players.

 

[Done that]

Christian was asked not directed, the same as academy players there are encouraged to play in the ACT and not Sydney, but it is their choice not the Brumbies. Many Brumbie players play in Sydney and a number choose to stay in the ACT. Andy Friend is committed to developing the ACT competition and making it stronger and by having a combined team in the Shute Shield, which would not necessarily be all Brumbies - it would strengthen ACT rugby.
Lastly, the comment on why would any team allow it - that is a great example of why rugby is being stiffled in Australia where clubs are calling the tune on who plays where instead of the ARU having the balls to start determining the playing structures of the various competitions.
The Sydney clubs were a great reason the ARC failed (other than financial) and they still continue to thwart any real effort of expansion and improvement just so they can maintain their status in their own sheltered environment.
The sooner control of the Shute Shield, Welsby Cup and all major competitions are wrestled from the clubs and given to the ARU the better.

I presume from your comments that you have no personal experience in the running of a club in the Shute Shield.
You ignore the fact that club rugby , is basically an amateur sport.
Each club , with the possible exception of Sydney University , is kept alive by people working their respective arses off , for no financial reward, i.e. simply for the love they have for their club.
Most clubs are hanging on by their financial fingernails as it is, & receive inadequate financial support from the NSWRU & ARU .
Expecting players & officials who are based in Sydney , for example , to be jetting all over the country for no adequate reward , is naive .
Comparing Union players to their counterparts in rugby league , is odious.
League players are full time professionals . Even those playing in the under 20 league competition , are payed more than the average first grader in Union.
And it is hardly surprising that the Sydney clubs have a significant say in the running of the game , because Sydney clubs , historically , provide a large proportion of the players.
I don't agree that Sydney clubs caused the ARC to fail .
It failed principally because of the expense involved in maintaining the competition , & lack of public support.
We all want Rugby to flourish & expand , but not at the expense of the premier club competition.That is where many of the players , ultimately , come from & develop in the first place.
It is also a place where Rugby is played for the joy of playing.
And the suggestion that the less successful clubs should be relegated , i.e.Penrith & Parramatta , is an idea that is totally detrimental to Rugby in this state , as they come from areas where Rugby is weakest & needs to be developed & encouraged, not relegated to a lower level of importance & interest than it already is.
If you want the ARU to have the balls to determine the competition structures , then let the ARU back it up with financial incentive & support to assist the clubs in all the areas where they are currently struggling.