REBELS v STORMERS RD 14

[jermano]

Stoked for a win!! Did not play great Rugby, but the young boys came through!! Stirzacker needs to start for the rest of the year, even if the Phipps fan club bring him on at the half.

 

[Shiggins]

It's not a matter of doubt, it's the referee's opinion of a likely outcome.

Phipps was held back when he was potentially one out with Habana and the line. He was thus intentionally denied a fair shot at a try.

Doing my best to remove all bias - which is hard because I'm pretty pumped at the moment - as a referee, I would have made the same call.

And to be fair, they're always going to give benefit of the doubt to the attacking team.

If we had to wait for the referee to clear all doubt that Phipps would have beaten Habana, we'd have been there all night.

I would of given a penalty and card but not awarded the try. I'm happy for the rebel fans though.

 

[Athilnaur]

Phipps was majorly held back and still almost got there first, reasonable call for mine in face of very cynical play. Personally didnt think higgers knocked on, trajectory looked wrong but was obscured and the tmo didn't look for other angles.

All in all for me a 50 50 that went one way (try) when it might have just been a penalty.

Not seen the whole game yet, but rapt to see the boys deliver, great job. Bear in mind the Rebels came very close to doing the same thing last year in SA with even less talent, the team might be fragile, even tissue paper, in defense but they can play.

 

[Shiggins]

Great decision

 

[Dumbledore]

Those bitter tears, they taste so sweet.

 

[Shiggins]

Wrong game. Hahaha

 

[FiveStarStu]

Superman wears Bryce Hegarty pyjamas,

 

[jermano]

Anyone get the crowd number? I missed it, but looked bigger than most this year.

 

[Bairdy]

The foul play was not the problem, it was the knock on by Higginbotham, that was exactly the same as the Chiefs offence, which denied Anscombe a fourth try a few weeks ago. It was the same TMO and he was absolutely inconsistent.

Regardless, Rebels played with intent and made history with their first win over a South African team!

 

[qwerty51]

Fantastic result, well done.

 

[Rassie]

Not if there is someone standing in the way. The video ref sees the same footage we do. I didn't see any clear footage showing the knock on. Did you? (as in did he actually see an angle showing Higginbotham's hand on the ball).

I agree with you it probably was, but as far as I understand unless there is conclusive (ie a shot from the other side) than the video ref can't rule.

The penalty try was harsh - but if you pull a guy back that close to the try line with no-one (at the time) in front of him, you are rolling the dice. I actually agree with the video ref that he would have got there, but I was still surprised he gave it.

Ok I cooled off and got over the disappointment. So let me spill it from my head and not my heart. Did the Stormers deserve a win? No. Did they deserve nothing out of this game? No

Without starting conspiracies or anything but I find it strange that the best angles always dissapear and there is some one in the way or not conclusive evidence to not award it. It scares me that we have put a game in the hands of local network who decides what angles are available. Also it scares me to think that local networks will always look for higher ratings. Nothing boost up ratings like a win for local team and get local support for a team. More local teams win at home more ratings. So we have placed a referee who sees only what they want him to see which makes him just a puppet. And I say this for all 3 countries. Cause its happening in all 3. You get some beautiful angles and you can make some good packages with it adding some crappy music and upload it to youtube. But as soon as a TMO needs a better angle its gone. Even if you saw a better angle earlier in the game.

The more power a TMO have the more power we give money hungry networks.

 

[qwerty51]

Is the TMO not in contact with the broadcast guy who decides the camera views to show? I thought he was.

 

[Rassie]

Is the TMO not in contact with the broadcast guy who decides the camera views to show? I thought he was.

The broadcast guy still belongs to the network. So he decides basically what the TMO can view. Which is a bit scary.

 

[qwerty51]

Are you sure? I know the TMO sees what the audience sees but I was told the TMO can request different angles if he requires them, could be wrong. This is why sometimes you see something totally different to what the commentators want (who usually work in tandem with the broadcaster).

 

[Rassie]

Are you sure? I know the TMO sees what the audience sees but I was told the TMO can request different angles if he requires them, could be wrong. This is why sometimes you see something totally different to what the commentators want (who usually work in tandem with the broadcaster).

He gets the same feed we get without sound. When you see those replays and such its the TMO looking at it. That is why referees will normally look at the big screen.

Remember tMO was brought in to make it more exciting as rugby have become part of showbiz television.

The Guidelines laid down by the IRB

Guidelines for TMO communication

These guidelines have been produced to assist match officials in the application of the TMO global trials ensuring that they comply with Law and the TMO protocol and that decisions are accurate.

Global Trial Law 6.A.7 – Referee Consulting With Others

(a) The referee may consult with assistant referees about matters relating to their duties, the Law relating to foul play or timekeeping, and may request assistance related to other aspects of the referees duties including the adjudication of offside.

(b) A match organiser may appoint an official known as a Television Match Official (TMO) who uses technological devices to clarify situations relating to:
• When there is doubt as to whether a ball has been grounded in in-goal for a score or a touchdown
• Where there is doubt as to whether a kick-at-goal has been successful
• Where there is doubt as to whether players were in touch or touch in goal before grounding the ball in in-goal or the ball has been made dead
• Where match officials believe an offence or infringement may have occurred leading to a try or in preventing a try
• Reviewing situations where match officials believe foul play may have occurred.
• Clarifying sanctions required for acts of foul play

(c) Any of the match officials including the TMO may recommend a review by the TMO. The reviews will take place in accordance with TMO protocol in place at the time.

(d) A match organiser may appoint a timekeeper who will signify the end of each half.

(e) The referee must not consult with any other persons.

1. Decisions relating to in-goal

1.1 The TMO may be used when the referee requires confirmation with regard to the scoring of a try. The TMO may also be consulted as to the success, or otherwise, of kicks-at-goal.

1.2 The referee will blow the whistle to signal time out and make the “time out” T signal.

1.3 The referee will make a “square box” signal with his hands and at the same time inform the TMO through the two way
communication that he will require his advice.

1.4 The referee will then ask the TMO one of three questions:
• “Is it a try – yes or no?”
• “Can you give me a reason why I cannot award a try?”
• “But for the act of foul play – probable try or no try?”

1.5 The TMO will then liaise with the TV Director and look at all available footage in order to gather enough information and to provide informed advice.

1.6 The broadcaster must provide all the angles requested by the TMO.

1.7 When the TMO has concluded his analysis he will provide the match referee with his advice and recommendations. The referee should repeat the TMO’s recommendation to ensure that he is absolutely satisfied that he has heard what has been recommended.

1.8 The TMO will then advise the referee as to when he may go ahead and signal his decision. (This process is essential in order to allow time for TV to focus their cameras on the referee for his decision).

1.9 The referee will then communicate his decision in the correct manner. Play will then continue and the time clock be restarted.

1.10 Where large on-ground video screens are available the TV Director may also communicate the decision.

1.11 In the absence of a video screen some grounds may use red and green lights to advise the crowd.

1.12 The important and primary method of communication still rests firmly with the referee who will indicate in the normal way after receiving the TMO’s advice.

2. For situations where there is doubt as to actions in the field of play leading to potential score

2.1 The referee may decide that a TMO referral is required or may be advised to do so by the assistant referees or the TMO if there is a potential offence that occurred prior to a player touching the ball down in the opposition's in-goal.

2.2 The referee goes through 1.2. and 1.3.

2.3 The referee will indicate that he would like a particular potential offence reviewed which preceded the ball being touched down in-goal.

2.4 The referee should indicate where the potential offence occurred and the nature of the potential offence e.g.
• "Could you please check whether white 14 was or was not in touch on the 22 before touching down"
• "Could please check if the green defender was impeded by a white players ten metres from the goal line"
• "Could you please check if there was a knock on the blind side of that last scrum before green touched down"

2.5 The match officials go through 1.5 to 1.12

3. For doubts relating to a kick at goal

3.1 The referee may decide that a TMO referral is required or may be advised to do so by the assistant referees or the TMO if there is doubt as to whether a kick has been successful or not.

3.2 The referee goes through 1.2 and 1.3.

3.3 The referee will then ask the TMO.
• "Has the kick been successful?"

3.4 The match officials go through 1.5 to 1.12.

4. For acts of foul play that may not be clearly identified

4.1 The referee goes through 1.2 and 1.3.

4.2 The referee will then ask the TMO to review the potential act of foul play indicating the location and circumstances.

4.3 The match officials go through 1.5 to 1.9.

5. For the correct sanction after an act of foul play

5.1 The referee may decide that a TMO referral is required or may be advised to do so by the assistant referees or the TMO if there is doubt as to the correct application of sanction for an act of foul play.

5.2 The referee goes through 1.2 and 1.3 asking advice as to the appropriate sanction.

Pre-match “team of 4” talk must underline the above approach and not include areas of jurisdiction which do not appear in the TMO protocol.

Appendix 1

Captured Learning From RFU Trial

The guiding principle is that the referee is in charge

1. Pre match briefing by referee to assistant referees & television match official

It is important that everything is clear about the TMO's role at the referee’s pre-match briefing, with regard to the protocol and its use. This should include the following: The referee should delay for a second or two before awarding a try. This will ensure that, if any of the other on field match officials have any incident they may wish to be referred, they should say “Check, check” in those seconds. The referee will then stop the clock, identify who has asked for the referral and then refer if necessary.

2. Sequence of television match official & referee communication

The referee will request what he wishes the TMO to look at using What, Where, Who. The TMO having been asked a question will repeat the question back to the referee before reviewing the event. Having reviewed the event the TMO will report back to the referee a clear and concise description of the event.

The referee may then decide on the course of action taking in to account other information received from on-field screen, assistant referees and their own view. This may also include requesting a recommendation as to sanction from the TMO. TMOs should keep their responses as succinct as possible, especially where there is a “non-sanction”.

3. Reporting to the referees

When an assistant referee reports to a referee an incident he should do so with an open microphone. This allows the broadcaster and the TMO to ‘clearly’ hear the conversation and allows preparations for any subsequent review to be started.

4. Referral of foul play to the referees

Where there is a referral for potential Foul Play, the referee should describe the potential incident with the relevant player number(s) (Who), the approximate location of the incident (Where), the nature of the incident (What) and, if possible, the timing of the incident (When).

The TMO will review the footage and, having established that all possible angles have been reviewed, will inform the referee: "I have a decision." The TMO will then pause. The referee will respond in one of two ways:

(I) "Thank you, but I've seen it" - where the referee has been able to review the incident clearly on the big screen and he will then decide on the decision and sanction;
(ii) "Go ahead" - where the referee has not seen the incident replayed clearly on the screen (or where there isn't a screen!)
In scenario (ii), if there is nothing to report, the TMO will respond, "There was nothing". However, if there is something to report, the TMO should describe the incident in as full a manner as possible. The referee will then decide, from the explanation, what decision and sanction he is going to apply. However, ultimately, the referee may still ask what sanction the TMO would recommend, but this should not be offered unless ask.

5. Referee noting a potential referral

If the referee believes he may be asking for a referral it is helpful if he indicates this to the TMO before the next stoppage so that the TMO knows where and when the potential incident may have occurred and can note that.

6. Forward passes

The TMO protocol is very specific on this matter. For the ball to be judged ‘forward’ the ball must be passed forward from a player’s hands and the flight of the ball should not be taken into consideration. If there is no evidence of a forward pass it is helpful if the TMO indicates that by stating; "There is no evidence of a forward pass".

How many people in Australia were looking forward to this game after the Rebels game against the Chiefs? And what led to the Rebels within touching distance of the Chiefs in that game a week prior? Dodgy TMO calls

 

[qwerty51]

So what are you talking about, the broadcaster has no influence since the TMO liaisons with the TV Director (that's the name I was looking for). It's all on the TMO.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

He gets the same feed we get without sound. When you see those replays and such its the TMO looking at it. That is why referees will normally look at the big screen.

That's not qwerty51 's point i dont think. The TMO gets, or can get, angles that were not broadcast in real time and that have not been seen in any replay of the incident that might have occurred prior to the ref seeking help. Sure the director or whatever feeds the replays but they are in communication: hence you will see them look at several angles and then go back to the first angle, for instance, they looked at to re-evaluate what is shown using information gleaned from one of the other angles reviewed.

This from your quote:

The TMO will review the footage and, having established that all possible angles have been reviewed, will inform the referee: "I have a decision." The TMO will then pause. The referee will respond in one of two ways:

How many people in Australia were looking forward to this game after the Rebels game against the Chiefs? And what led to the Rebels within touching distance of the Chiefs in that game a week prior? Dodgy TMO calls

If this is meant to suggest that the Rebels have got favourable dodgy calls because of a conspiracy involving the broadcaster then you have plumbed new depths, even for you.
Your theory all stems from your erroneous contention that the broadcaster decides what will be seen: it merely facilitates the TMO complying with the requirement to view "all possible angles".
The TMO was, contrary to the underlying premise of your conspiracy theory, brought in to try and get the calls right.
Isnt there a gold and green forum where you can sprout your conspiratorial defamatory rubbish?

 

[Rassie]

That's not qwerty51 's point i dont think. The TMO gets, or can get, angles that were not broadcast in real time and that have not been seen in any replay of the incident that might have occurred prior to the ref seeking help. Sure the director or whatever feeds the replays but they are in communication: hence you will see them look at several angles and then go back to the first angle, for instance, they looked at to re-evaluate what is shown using information gleaned from one of the other angles reviewed.

This from your quote:





If this is meant to suggest that the Rebels have got favourable dodgy calls because of a conspiracy involving the broadcaster then you have plumbed new depths, even for you.
Your theory all stems from your erroneous contention that the broadcaster decides what will be seen: it merely facilitates the TMO complying with the requirement to view "all possible angles".
The TMO was, contrary to the underlying premise of your conspiracy theory, brought in to try and get the calls right.
Isnt there a gold and green forum where you can sprout your conspiratorial defamatory rubbish?

No not at all. As you can see I mentioned its happening in ALL 3 countries. I am just using the latest examples as I can tell you most dodgy decisions were mostly going to the home team. Since first game vs the Bulls, last week Blues game till now. The broadcaster must provide all available angles. So its still what the broadcaster provide. If the broadcaster decides not to give a angle the the TMO just go on with the perception the angle is not there. Look at the 2nd test SA vs the Lions. The Fourie try. A angle suddenly were missing there. Listen to the commentators saying not this angle not this angle.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

No not at all. As you can see I mentioned its happening in ALL 3 countries. I am just using the latest examples as I can tell you most dodgy decisions were mostly going to the home team. Since first game vs the Bulls, last week Blues game till now. The broadcaster must provide all available angles. So its still what the broadcaster provide. If the broadcaster decides not to give a angle the the TMO just go on with the perception the angle is not there. Look at the 2nd test SA vs the Lions. The Fourie try. A angle suddenly were missing there. Listen to the commentators saying not this angle not this angle.

Its implausible.
It would require the acceptance of SANZAR, and probably of the IRB (since the refs are IRB refs), that the broadcasters will only show them the angles they feel like showing them.
I cannot believe that this is being put forward as a benign reality.

 

[Ruggo]

I have no issue with the penalty try. Given how close Phipps got despite being held back is a reasonable indicator that without the foul play he would of got there.

I am not convinced about the potential knock on though. It looked very suspect to me.

None the less, well done Rebels and their supporters. Lap it up as it has been building for the last few weeks.

I don't know what happened behind the scenes but the turn around has been fantastic.