Shute Shield 2013

[The Galah]

Here's an idea.
Sydney Uni have outgrown club rugby in Sydney.
When Uni beats Randwick 78-0 in 1st grade and 103-5 in a 1st Colt's semi-final on the same day, it's clear there is an issue.
If the Club Rugby administrators can't or won't make changes for season 2014 then the other 11 clubs should man up and force change themselves.
Every club should simply forfeit every game in every grade against Sydney Uni. Uni would have nobody to play against and it would force administrators to act.
Problem is that ex Sydney Uni players rule rugby administration roles at NSW Rugby, Waratah Rugby and the ARU.

A break away union.....!

 

[Goldust]

Lets see how things pan out, break away comps and forfeiting seem a way off yet. The Woodies and Marlins probably fancy their chances but more than likely Uni will win. Not sure the current proposal for 2014 helps any club bridge the gap to uni in the future and in fact the gap will widen with the abolishment of match payments (that may be the only current competitive advantage the clubs have). Allowing the scholarships to go on will condemn the other clubs powerless and it very naive to think that the level of support Uni provide will be able to be controlled under some sort if cap. Interesting times.

 

[Dave Beat]

Goldust starts on the hill next Sunday @ 11:40

 

[2bluesfan]

Thommo's match report for the final round match against Penrith is now available on the Two Blues website.

 

[Dave Beat]

Some interesting thoughts floating around with regards to the Shute 2014, shit I even posted in the Shute 2012 thread for a variation.
On this -

Here's an idea.
Sydney Uni have outgrown club rugby in Sydney.
When Uni beats Randwick 78-0 in 1st grade and 103-5 in a 1st Colt's semi-final on the same day, it's clear there is an issue.
If the Club Rugby administrators can't or won't make changes for season 2014 then the other 11 clubs should man up and force change themselves.
Every club should simply forfeit every game in every grade against Sydney Uni. Uni would have nobody to play against and it would force administrators to act.
Problem is that ex Sydney Uni players rule rugby administration roles at NSW Rugby, Waratah Rugby and the ARU.

On this Bruce Ross do you have a short view / idea on a proposed structure?

 

[fatprop]

So Uni are you talking about dragging Uni down to the standard of the rest of the clubs? or trying to lift the standard of the other clubs to the current level of Uni?

 

[Dave Beat]

So Uni are you talking about dragging Uni down to the standard of the rest of the clubs? or trying to lift the standard of the other clubs to the current level of Uni?

I'm for the latter. Uni has got an advantage that other clubs don't, but never have I condemned them for making use of their resources.
How to balance that out, my start & finish Shute in line with the Super, and start a new comp post these also covers the 3T topic.

Who knows the 3T maybe Uni standing alone against other geographical rep teams that the Shute Clubs put together, I am for the 3T, but nor for Uni standing alone as it will only fuel their growth.

 

[wamberal]

So Uni are you talking about dragging Uni down to the standard of the rest of the clubs? or trying to lift the standard of the other clubs to the current level of Uni?

Most of the time you talk sense about the game, Fatty.


How, precisely, do the genuine district clubs get up to the standard of these privileged chaps?


Spell it out for us, please.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

I'm for the latter. Uni has got an advantage that other clubs don't, but never have I condemned them for making use of their resources.
How to balance that out, my start & finish Shute in line with the Super, and start a new comp post these also covers the 3T topic.

Who knows the 3T maybe Uni standing alone against other geographical rep teams that the Shute Clubs put together, I am for the 3T, but nor for Uni standing alone as it will only fuel their growth.

I'd prefer to keep it to what Belly suggested. Make it a post club season Rep competition. You could split the clubs up into "regions". If Country want a crack they can. Do the same with the Brisbane comp and Canberra. Depending on numbers say 6 squads, you can run it CC style or if you get more just one round. Either way each club has a horse in the race.

 

[wamberal]

Okay, I will answer my own question. Most genuine rugby people understand that the way that things are at the moment in club rugby is not good for the game. A fairly balanced competition is surely what we should all want. As a supporter of one of the most successful clubs (in recent years, anyway) that is what I want. I would love to see teams like Gordon return to their former glory, and clubs like Parramatta and Penrith thriving.

When I played, many many years ago, Sydney University was a strong club, they had some of the advantages that they have today, particularly a guaranteed intake of good young players every season. However, when the young players finished their studies, and went out into the real world, some of them left SU and joined a real district club.

That is what should happen now. SU should have the brains to work it out. A strong SS is good for the game in Sydney, good for all of us. Do good players really enjoy running around on Saturday arvo in what amounts to an opposed training run? Does the game benefit when struggling clubs continue to struggle?


SU rugby leadership should do what is good for the game, and announce that from here on, only genuine students will be invited to represent the club, and when they graduate, they will be expected to go out into the real world, to a real district club.

 

[Gibbo]

I read this thread every day and I keep thinking to myself....

"There is no spoon"

Until the ARU says to all and sundry, from Wallabies > SuperXV > Club footy > Subbies > Juniors > Schools "Here sign this document that puts you under our control (ie the same way the kiwi's are structured)" there will be no compromise, there will be no clean structure, there will be no result.

Too many layers of governance = Too many agendas. The ARU board is supposedly 'independent' but the layers below are not that is the road block. We need these ego's to get out of the way.

 

[fatprop]

Most of the time you talk sense about the game, Fatty.


How, precisely, do the genuine district clubs get up to the standard of these privileged chaps?


Spell it out for us, please.

Well, firstly I don't see any of these teams in the Shute Shield as "genuine district clubs" anymore. They all poach and canibinalise each other.

I also do remember when Syd Uni were in 2nd division and the Randwick were the "evil empire"

The key thing that Uni did was really improve player development, specifically from Colts, they provide a quality development program while leveraging their network to get job pathways. But that isn't a short term fix.

 

[Late Starter]

Okay, I will answer my own question. Most genuine rugby people understand that the way that things are at the moment in club rugby is not good for the game. A fairly balanced competition is surely what we should all want. As a supporter of one of the most successful clubs (in recent years, anyway) that is what I want. I would love to see teams like Gordon return to their former glory, and clubs like Parramatta and Penrith thriving.

When I played, many many years ago, Sydney University was a strong club, they had some of the advantages that they have today, particularly a guaranteed intake of good young players every season. However, when the young players finished their studies, and went out into the real world, some of them left SU and joined a real district club.

That is what should happen now. SU should have the brains to work it out. A strong SS is good for the game in Sydney, good for all of us. Do good players really enjoy running around on Saturday arvo in what amounts to an opposed training run? Does the game benefit when struggling clubs continue to struggle?


SU rugby leadership should do what is good for the game, and announce that from here on, only genuine students will be invited to represent the club, and when they graduate, they will be expected to go out into the real world, to a real district club.

You assume that a district based competition is the best way to go. All the other universities in Sydney enter teams in the district based, subbies divisions, if SU force this rule on Sydney Uni then they would have to apply the same rule to the other universities. Besides, you'll find the majority of Uni's professional players are still students anyway as they often continue to study undergrad and post grad degrees while they are playing professionally. Phil Waugh finished his Masters the year after he retired from professional rugby.

You say you want a strong Shute Shield but what you really want is a more even Shute Shield. But what's good for Australian rugby isn't to weaken the strongest team, it's to strengthen the other teams. Then you've got an even SS that's of a higher standard than if you just take half the best players from one club and spread them around the competition. Which by the way is what players are free to do themselves, and many in fact do. So you can be sure that everyone who turns out for Uni on the weekend wants to play for the club.

 

[Spieber]

SU rugby leadership should do what is good for the game, and announce that from here on, only genuine students will be invited to represent the club, and when they graduate, they will be expected to go out into the real world, to a real district club.

Half agree - only people who are enrolled at Syd Uni should be are given a start, which could knock out a surprisingly high number (nb living at St Andrews College doesn't count). Once there they can stay as long as they like. Wouldn't be too many players over 21 under your scheme.

 

[I like to watch]

You say you want a strong Shute Shield but what you really want is a more even Shute Shield. But what's good for Australian rugby isn't to weaken the strongest team, it's to strengthen the other teams. Then you've got an even SS that's of a higher standard than if you just take half the best players from one club and spread them around the competition. Which by the way is what players are free to do themselves, and many in fact do. So you can be sure that everyone who turns out for Uni on the weekend wants to play for the club.

of course their current players want to be there. That is self evident.
I believe a more even SS is better for the game.look at the score in the colts semi 100 point wins develop no one.
Playing Super contracted players in reserves because you can't fit them in your 1's also adds nothing positive to the game.
Restrict Uni from recruiting as many schoolboys stars as they normally do,let them develop a cohort of kids who played school 2nd's,and we can then see if their program actually improves players,or whether they are just picking winners that would have been developed in any environment.
Edit: that's too harsh,Will Skelton is an example of what the Uni machine can do.I am certain he would never attained the standard he has in any other environment.

 

[Bruce Ross]

On this Bruce Ross do you have a short view / idea on a proposed structure?

Some time ago, Dave, I put forward a proposal for a Third Tier competition:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/co...–-an-affordable-third-tier-competition.11359/

 

[the coach]

Sorry, I know I'm flogging a dead horse, but the player points system has become a complete farce and is achieving absolutely nothing.

On Saturday Uni's 1st grade run on side full of S15 and test players totalled 34 player points (13 of which belonged to Tom Kingston). They had another 31 points on the bench so could have played all these guys and still been under the cap of 100 points.

Randwick without a single rep player (with the exception of Tim Wright who played a couple of games for the Brumbies about 20 years ago) totalled 20 points.

If we are going to have a points system it has to be better than this.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Everyone is pretty quick to bag Uni for not developing junior players from their "hinterland" as a "normal" district club is supposed to do. Let's just suspend reality for a bit and ignore the numerous inter-district transfers that occur and continue to occur as the "rich" clubs attract players from the "poor" districts.

If Sydney Uni Rugby Club (which is an entity which is independent of Sydney University, IIRC) is to be limited to registering players who are enrolled at Sydney University, then what district club is going to take responsibility for Juniors in the City, Inner West, and Inner South. Not that Uni seem to do all that much, but they do seem to at least be trying with Petersham and Balmain juniors, and their adoption of Canterbury Juniors.

If Sydney University Rugby Club is going to be limited to playing only Students from that institution that the Club is associated with, then the Wicks should only be allowed to register players who reside within Randwick Council area. Same with Beasts and Waverley/Wollahra Council, Hobbits and Sutherland Shire Council, and so on. This would be unworkable.

The easiest "solution" would be to have the Shute Shield GF coincide with the Soup Season so the Rock Stars are not involved, unless they have been released by their franchise for some match fitness or injury related reason. Restricting the Students on who can register with them will not work.

After the Shute Shield is done and dusted, then it is time for an abbreviated Tier 3 season for all the Non Wallaby rock stars. While this is on the SRU can then run an abbreviated knockout type Club series, or a top 6/ bottom 6 knockout comp or some such thing to keep the clubland going.

NZ seems to manage things this way, with the ITM cup (that we all sing the praises of) not starting until after Soup Rugby has been completed.
This proposal would also stop the Trans-Tasman movement of players below the Wallabies Radar from Aust Super franchises.

 

[the coach]

If the above isn't stupid enough I just noticed that Stephen Hoiles who hasn't played for 2 years and came off the bench in 2nd grade was hit with 20 player points !!!

Surely that can't be right when we've got current S15 players and recent test players with 0 points???

He's been with Randwick since under 10's why hasn't he got a 100% discount or does that only apply to Uni who have no juniors?????

Yours sincerely,
Really pissed off now !!!

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Some time ago, Dave, I put forward a proposal for a Third Tier competition:
http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/community/threads/learning-from-the-enemy-–-an-affordable-third-tier-competition.11359/

It's not a bad concept. Involves teams from all the major markets which is a real positive. The only issue I have with it is the ability of some clubs to be able to put forth bids in which to compete. I know Uni could, but who else. Then you have to ask about the value of brands. Which clubs would provide greater recognition to the competition. They're difficult questions in which to answer.

Then there's the issue of the Super clubs and their effect on clubs. What's not to say that the Super Rugby clubs would prevent players from returning to their clubs. For many they are their employer or prospective employer. Would be difficult for players to potentially give up the opportunities provided.

As I see it, it needs to work out one of two ways. The clubs get together and say, we have a model in mind. Everyone is welcome to participate if they can satisfy x criteria in terms of finances to include travel, accommodation and player remuneration if required. Those that can will go it alone while it may force some co-operation from others.

The other way is a rep comp.