School sporting scholarships/recruitment

[Hugh Jarse]

Being induced into an AAGPS school at year 7, where the lad may get to enjoy 6 years soaking up the AAGPS school culture, is just as much in breach of the AAGPS Heads of Schools Code of Conduct as what is happening in QLD where some lads are arriving at school just for the year 12 rugby season.

Player X has been at <insert School name> since year 7 and is therefore "clean" or "organic" is an assumption that is as false as Player Y arrived in year 11 and was therefore enticed to the school with some form of bursary, fee reduction or booster arrangements.

Not all good rugby players are on scholarships. Good rugby players. like bad rugby players and average rugby players, change schools from time to time depending on individual family circumstances.

The year of entry to the school is an irrelevant indicator to determining if there is a breach of the AAGPS Code of Conduct by the School.

 

[Quick Hands]

I
With regards to the rugby program which one can only assume has caused the start of the drama here, of the TSC 1sts, the only boys who started late (year 9 onwards) WITHOUT a family member previously attending OR NOT a full fee paying student was a lock and the flyhalf, even then im not fully confirmed on their Full fee paying status, but they were the only two i couldnt confirm.

The rest of the team are all above board, TSC just got a damn good year, built around 9 of the U13a side (i saw the photo yesterday in the old boys magazine i kept in the cupboard)! SO the arguement is crap. Kings would have had the now barker boy there this year if he had been happy, and he was there with assistance, Joeys miraculously have gun state players appear weeks after playing in state sides in the U15,s has happened a few years in a row (conicidence is igrnoed here).

I think you'll find the No 7 started Year 7 at St Augustines, then went to Barrnjoey High, before arriving at Scots. Currently in Year 11.

 

[Quick Hands]

The year of entry to the school is an irrelevant indicator to determining if there is a breach of the AAGPS Code of Conduct by the School.

True, but much harder to detect and generally is less of an issue as the boy has been part of the school community since Year 7, so his peers respect his talent and indentify with the shared experience of 6 years at high school.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The NSW Labour governments approach to the poor reliability of RailCorp trains running on time was to change the criteria for working out if a train was on time or not.

RailCorp performance and timetable running improved spectacularly, (and someone will correct me on the actual minor detail) when they redefined LATE from being > 2 minutes late to > 5 minutes late.

Perhaps time for AAGPS to redefine their Code of Conduct agreement to reduce the number and frequency of breaches.

Make Year 7 open slather provided the bursaries are openly advertised on the School web sites, and the Parents and Carers are made aware of what percentage if any of their fees are to subsidise the scholarship programme.

Topping up the gene pool after U15, U16 state champs/rep selections should be actively discouraged, particularly when a school staff member or close associate may have coached or managed the players doing the topping up.

If AAGPS games are for games sake and the pure educational and athletic benefits of games, How about taking a leaf from the CAS in the early days, and not having a formal premiership? Everyone may know which school won the most games, but no one school will be able to live vicariously through claiming AAGPS World Domination in their promotional material. If the title of premier does not exist, then no one can claim it or feel that they need to induce boys to their school in a quest to claim the non-existant prize.

 

[Quick Hands]

I'm interested in the "deprived from attending a GPS school argument" which has now arisen. It presupposes an entitlement to something for which you can't pay.

Yes, everyone is entitled to enrol at a GPS school, but there is a cost involved in that choice. There are a range of less expensive educational choices, which still provide a comprehensive education with fees ranging from half that of a GPS school to almost nothing. Children are definitely entitled to a good education, but are they entitled to go to a GPS school without paying for it? Is a middle class student who can afford to attend another private school "entitled" to a free GPS place because he is good at sport, but a disadvantage student who is just average isn't?

There's lots of things in life that I'm "deprived" of because I can't afford to pay. BMW sports cars, waterfront home, 1st class flights to Europe etc. I'm not actually being "deprived" of any of them, because I have no entitlement to them in the first place.

 

[Muglair]

Good point Quick hands, I suppose affordability depends on currency. Is sporting talent legal tender?

In large part some of the cost is borne by other school stakeholders be it churches, old boys, paying parents, benefactors etc. Therefore if the GPS attempts to regulate this and drives it underground then those bearing the costs are unable to assess the costs and benefits to the school and other students when everything is shrouded in such secrecy.

Maybe just requiring full disclosure will go some way to fixing the issue with school management having to publicly demonstrate the value to stakeholders.

I have had a lot more time to look at past posts, and like everything else I have posted over the weekend; I bet this has been suggested before.

 

[Buster]

There's lots of things in life that I'm "deprived" of because I can't afford to pay. BMW sports cars, waterfront home, 1st class flights to Europe etc. I'm not actually being "deprived" of any of them, because I have no entitlement to them in the first place.[/quote]

But QH, if a benefactor of some description came forward and offered you a BMW as they thought it might improve your prospects of becoming a forumla one driver, or imprving your chances of progressing in that field, an opportunity you would otherwise not have been able to undertake, is it still so bad.

As long as the term bursary is in play, this problem, if it is a problem, will exist.
2 solutions. No bursarys or financial assistance in any way shape or form, Academic and music included OR

Bursarys or support or whatever, but cannot play 1st of 2nd level sport.

Neither of these is atrractive, and noone would have the balls to make that call!

 

[Inside Shoulder]

2 solutions. No bursarys or financial assistance in any way shape or form, Academic and music included

You are missing the point.
There is no agreement between any schools not to give academic or music scholarships.
Therefore giving them does not breach any understanding between the schools.
The problem arises because there is an agreement which, it seems, some schools think is being breached. The agreement is soundly based in educational principles and recognition of the fact that sport is only n adjunct to education at school level and not an end in itself.
Academic performance is an end in itself and is not adjunct but the core of the schooling process.

 

[Quick Hands]

Good point Quick hands, I suppose affordability depends on currency. Is sporting talent legal tender?

In large part some of the cost is borne by other school stakeholders be it churches, old boys, paying parents, benefactors etc. Therefore if the GPS attempts to regulate this and drives it underground then those bearing the costs are unable to assess the costs and benefits to the school and other students when everything is shrouded in such secrecy.

Maybe just requiring full disclosure will go some way to fixing the issue with school management having to publicly demonstrate the value to stakeholders.

I have had a lot more time to look at past posts, and like everything else I have posted over the weekend; I bet this has been suggested before.

One thing I've suggested previously is a points system, and I gather that the Heads have been working on one themselves.

For example, if students were allocated 1 point if the started in Year 7, 2=Yr 8, 3=Yr 9, 4=Yr10, 5=Yr11, 6=Yr 12 and each sport had a maximum number of points allowed on the field/court/pool/etc in 1sts and 2nds. So if 1sts and 2nds rugby had a points allowance of 25, most of your players will have had to have started in years 7 or 8. It takes how they came to the school out of the equation and makes bringing boys in at Year 9, 10 or 11 not worth the effort. Where different sports have different numbers of players, reduce the points quota.

EDIT: And being a quantafiable number, it becomes a black and white issue as to whether the school complies.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

I thought I'd jump in and split some hairs, after I reinforce one of the key messages of Inside Shoulder.

The Heads of the AAGPS schools have all agreed to a code of conduct that specifically excludes athletic scholarships. Change that agreement and the problem of schools acting deceptively goes away.

What sort of message does it send to boys and parents of AAGPS Schools?
Ignore rules and agreements provided you end up on top. Are these the sort of values that an AAGPS education stands for?

While the Arms race is destroying aspects of the ARU pathway to gold, and junior village club sport, the schools have no obligation to the ARU and they will do what they feel is in their best interests. They self insure, they have their own competition managers and rules. they do not need ARU.

The fact that ARU is effectively seen standing by doing nothing while the Arms Race in Queensland Schools, Sydney Schools and Vic Schools (1 school only apparently) is in full swing, destroying the very base of their player and supporter pyramid is rather reckless conduct by the peak body. This behaviour by the ARU is even more perplexing given the rather inconsistent performance of the graduates of this elite schooling academy system at Under 20 and above levels.

Splitting hairs time.
Academic Scholarships - agree keep them. They are core to the whole business of running a school.
Music Scholarships - Is music core to the education continuum? It gives people enjoyment and is a legitimate profession. Shouldn't they fit into the same as sporting scholarships as a non-core activity?

Drawing the long bow time.
Athletic scholarships. Many sports are legitimate professions. Sport gives people enjoyment and is a legitimate profession. While there are not many full time athletes, there are plenty of opportunities in the management, administration marketing and promotion of sports. Why should the schools be denied the ability to prepare kids for entry into this profession/trade?

Since the NSW law requires kids to attend School until they are 17, many schools now offer trades qualification courses (in conjunctions with TAFE NSW) alongside preparing students for matriculation ( HSC/IB). Not every kid is at school with an intention to attending a Higher Education Institution. On the basis that kids at schools can be learning to be plumbers, hairdressers, builders, chefs, electricians, and musicians, there should be the opportunity for schools to prepare kids for entry into sports related trades, and it could be considered a core activity of the education system. The government recognises this with the establishment of a number of sporting selective public High Schools.

Attracting the best musicians is achieved through offering musical scholarships.

Attracting the best sportspersons is achieved through offering sporting scholarships.

The legitimacy of one is open and encouraged, the other is discouraged because of an agreement between the parties, AND because of the effect that it has on Junior Club rugby, and rugby programmes elsewhere, AND the ARU do not seem to be doing anything about this undermining of the player pyramid.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Player points system. That would work and there would not be any discontent. Just ask the Shute Shield clubs.

Are you suggesting that a lad who's family can only afford to attend 2 years of boarding fees and therefore is a Yr 11 entry is seen as 5 pointer, even if that family had been sending all their boys to the school for several generations?

Families win lotteries, receive inheritances, win promotions at work, move interstate and internationally, business and investments turn around, droughts end, Grandparents and family trusts sometimes chip in to enable financial and educational circumstances to change. Should these late comers be denied an opportunity to represent their school at first grade level just because they weren't there in year 7?

Do you introduce family loyalty discounts, discounts for living far away, loading for state representation in an attempt to provide a level playing field and to be legitimately fair to some of the late entries? In this event you introduce a level of complexity and open the door for creative accounting.

 

[Inside Shoulder]

Music Scholarships - Is music core to the education continuum? It gives people enjoyment and is a legitimate profession. Shouldn't they fit into the same as sporting scholarships as a non-core activity?

If it were up to me, you'll be surprised to hear HJ, I would get rid of the music scholarships: all you need is a recording of the Rocky theme and you can cover just about all needs.
However, I am told by educationalists that there is some demonstrated connection between being a gifted musician, and even just learning music and academic performance.

 

[Runner]

I agree with Hugh Jarse that sport is now a legitimate path to a career. If we accept that then like many things a reform of the system will need to be examined.

What about having a set number of scholarships per school per sport / activity monitered by an indepent group for associations. I believe like the USA system.

i doubt the ARU or state bodies could have much effect on the schools as they would have no say. Happy to be corrected as I am unsure.

 

[Buster]

You are missing the point.
There is no agreement between any schools not to give academic or music scholarships.
Therefore giving them does not breach any understanding between the schools.
The problem arises because there is an agreement which, it seems, some schools think is being breached. The agreement is soundly based in educational principles and recognition of the fact that sport is only n adjunct to education at school level and not an end in itself.
Academic performance is an end in itself and is not adjunct but the core of the schooling process.

IS i understand your point, however as HJ has gone on to mention, with any legitimate agreement, there will be creative work, such as the age old one athletes getting a triangle scholarship (it has happened, and also on an academic level). Even to the extent of a legitamate 3rd party paying for a talented athlete to attend the school (happened at kings a few years behind me in the late 90's), where do you draw the line. Wealthy parents paying for another taltend person not so well off to attend and bulk up the schools 1sts? Busary scholarships, set up through benefactor donations specifically to bring less advanataged people to the school. All schoosl have bursary, why cant those kids also be talented athletes? This one is a pandoras box unfortunately, which is why i think the accusations are a load of garbage.

As i mentioned there are 2 realistic pathways, ban all scholarships, or open slather. If any scholarship is legitimate, you will find that the musicians, will all of a sudden (gasp in suspense) be talented athletes.

Schools want to win, it is good for the image/brand/environment of the school. Ask any headmaster if they would like to win, they will all say yes, so while an opportunity is available, creativity will exists.

They can embrace or bomb it, there call!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Careful with putting too many schoolboy rugby scholarship rockstars on pedestals.

One of the great aspects of many of the Private Schools is that they put great value in the character development of their students, as well as their academic progression/achievement.

I'm pretty sure that Nudgee College are probably more than a little disappointed in the character flaws of one of their high profile Wallaby alumni who seems to be seen more and more in a negative and selfish light in the media.

As well as preparing their students for the work place, and higher education, many parents perceive that the main value of sending Oliver and Sam to an expensive Private School is the superior character development that they will achieve with their students.

 

[Quick Hands]

Player points system. That would work and there would not be any discontent. Just ask the Shute Shield clubs.

Are you suggesting that a lad who's family can only afford to attend 2 years of boarding fees and therefore is a Yr 11 entry is seen as 5 pointer, even if that family had been sending all their boys to the school for several generations?

Families win lotteries, receive inheritances, win promotions at work, move interstate and internationally, business and investments turn around, droughts end, Grandparents and family trusts sometimes chip in to enable financial and educational circumstances to change. Should these late comers be denied an opportunity to represent their school at first grade level just because they weren't there in year 7?

Do you introduce family loyalty discounts, discounts for living far away, loading for state representation in an attempt to provide a level playing field and to be legitimately fair to some of the late entries? In this event you introduce a level of complexity and open the door for creative accounting.

This is the sort of stuff which renders the current code a toothless tiger. Anyone can think up any number of reasons why they should be exempt from it, while at the same time closely monitoring the activities of the other schools.

No system is perfect, what a points system does is reduce it to black and white. You're either compliant or you're not. As soon as you bring exemptions in, you have rorting and the more exemptions you have the more meaningless your code of practice becomes. There is still room in the points system for the boys you describe.

Honestly how many boys, who are also top level sportsmen have grandparents winning the lottery etc. We're constantly told by each of the schools how many of their players started in Year 7 and they don't bring in boys after Year 9. Well, a points system allows for most of the team to come in at Year 7 and still leaves room for the odd boys who start later.

If the current code of practice shows us anything, it's that schools will use all sorts of devices - many of which you've listed - as ways around the rules. It's a remarkable coincidence the amount of grandmothers winning lottery, turn around in family fortune etc involve talented sportsmen. Forgive my cynicism, but we've heard all these excuses ad nauseum.

Bite the bullet AAGPS or accept that your colleagues are going to cheat on you.

 

[Quick Hands]

I thought I'd jump in and split some hairs, after I reinforce one of the key messages of Inside Shoulder.


Splitting hairs time.
Academic Scholarships - agree keep them. They are core to the whole business of running a school.
Music Scholarships - Is music core to the education continuum? It gives people enjoyment and is a legitimate profession. Shouldn't they fit into the same as sporting scholarships as a non-core activity?

Attracting the best musicians is achieved through offering musical scholarships.

Attracting the best sportspersons is achieved through offering sporting scholarships.

The point you neglect is that schools don't compete against each other in orchestral festivals. It matters not which of the schools have the most talented musicians, because they don't humiliate students from the other schools in one sided contests.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The point you neglect is that schools don't compete against each other in orchestral festivals. It matters not which of the schools have the most talented musicians, because they don't humiliate students from the other schools in one sided contests.

You haven't heard me sing or play a musical instrument have you. Now that is humiliation.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

<snip>

Bite the bullet AAGPS or accept that your colleagues are going to cheat on you.

Now that would be a very important lesson for the graduates from the AAGPS system to keep in the back of their mind as they enter the world of business, either as a tradesman or professional. That being said, I'm not sure that this important life lesson is part of the written curriculum of the schools, nor the reason why the AAGPS Code of Conduct is being breached with what seems to be tacit approval in many circumstances.

 

[random2]

Regarding the two 14s boys at Joeys who are claimed to be imports, one is full fee paying and they other is on applied for a scholarship but was turned down but eventually was granted assistance (1/4 or something like that). The NSW 15s captain who started in year 10 was always coming too Joeys but he applied for a Maths scholarship and received it and is sitting his 4 unit HSC this year. Regarding the point system, it would never work. Schools such as Joeys and Kings regularly get boarders coming in year 10 and 11 who are genuine, it's just the make up of the school. As I said its not the scholarships alone that I think are causing the anger against Scots, and ill agree that Joeys, Kings and View have all been guilty of the same at one time or another, but it's the professionalism that comes with it at Scots that I think is getting them in trouble. Anyway I am sure all 5 headmasters have thought long and hard about taking action and would be well informed too do so. Now all we can do is wait it out and see what happens.