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Australia Vs. England, Twickenham, 2nd November 2013

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Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Quick Hands,

I suspect the problem is a lot broader than just the GPS competition. Quite a few of our top tight forwards are not the product of the GPS system, and it is not all that easy to tell which is which. It would be interesting to know just who is actually from a GPS School amongst our current piggies. I know Ben Robinson and James Slipper are, Kepu is not, not sure about Alexander. TPN and Finger are not, not sure about Moore. Horwill? Timani and Douglas are not, AFAIK. Simmons?
From some quick research:

Simmons - The Southport School (GPS Qld)
Mowen - Villanova College (AIC Qld) - equivalent of CAS in Sydney I think
Alexander - Knox Grammar (CAS)
Moore - Brisbane Grammar (GPS)
Horwill - Brisbane Boys College (GPS)
 

hughbert

Herbert Moran (7)
Some positives

Cooper - the long ball to Folau. He earnt his 13 grand with that alone.

To'omua - in his fourth test start is turning into a real asset. Couple of fuck ups kicking to touch but we've seen 80 test veterans do that and given them passes for it. Hopefully he finds that balance between distance and guaranteeing touch. He's got a level head. Instead of taking it to ground after the post deflection, he kicked the shit out of it. Would have been better if it went out, but it shows composure IMO. Actually capable of landing a garryowen where we have a chasing player headed. Haven't seen that since Larkham to Lote and Lynah to Smith before that.

Kuridriani - what a beast. Defence improving and that palm he delivered late in the game was up there with Cooper's pass in terms of entertainment value.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - reliable as ever.

Folau - learning how to inject himself more. Not perfect on passing tactics but he's a handful and we need all of that.

Fardy - actually appears to give a shit, unlike the rest of the forwards (well, Hooper also)
 

Hugh Jarse

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Quick Hands,

I suspect the problem is a lot broader than just the GPS competition. Quite a few of our top tight forwards are not the product of the GPS system, and it is not all that easy to tell which is which. It would be interesting to know just who is actually from a GPS School amongst our current piggies. I know Ben Robinson and James Slipper are, Kepu is not, not sure about Alexander. TPN and Finger are not, not sure about Moore. Horwill? Timani and Douglas are not, AFAIK. Simmons?

Kepu may not be a AAGPS product, but this from wikipedia.

Kepu captained the Wesley College first XV from the number eight position in 2004, before switching to the front row with the New Zealand under-19s in 2005.[6] He represented New Zealand at under 17, 19 and 21 levels.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sekope_Kepu

Wesley also has a proud rugby tradition having been the most successful 1st XV in NZ with 5 national titles (1991, 1993, 1997, 2001, 2004)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wesley_College,_Auckland

To all intents and purposes Kepu seems to be a product of a NZ GPS equivalent system.
 

nugget

Jimmy Flynn (14)
WTF was Mowen doing holding his hand over his heart American style during the national anthem?

Americans do it for their pledge of allegiance thing.

Australians do not, especially Wallaby captains. Don't do it again ben! Fuck me dead, groan.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
WTF was Mowen doing holding his hand over his heart American style during the national anthem?

Americans do it for their pledge of allegiance thing.

Australians do not, especially Wallaby captains. Don't do it again ben! Fuck me dead, groan.

Really? You have an objection to that? Of all the things Mowen did (& didn't do) during the game and you focus on his choice of showing patriotism ? Lighten up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
WTF was Mowen doing holding his hand over his heart American style during the national anthem?

Americans do it for their pledge of allegiance thing.

Australians do not, especially Wallaby captains. Don't do it again ben! Fuck me dead, groan.

14kwrhk.gif
 

nugget

Jimmy Flynn (14)
Really? You have an objection to that? Of all the things Mowen did (& didn't do) during the game and you focus on his choice of showing patriotism ? Lighten up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bah! The socceroos got lambasted for doing it a few weeks ago so should Mowen. Fitzsimons had a rant in his column about them doing it too, and the history of what it really means, you should look it up. I think it's stupid for the captain of the wallabies to do it. What next, a haka?
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Bah! The socceroos got lambasted for doing it a few weeks ago so should Mowen. Fitzsimons had a rant in his column about them doing it too, and the history of what it really means, you should look it up. I think it's stupid for the captain of the wallabies to do it. What next, a haka?



Fitzy, much as loved him in the Wallaby jumper, can be a dickhead too. He's entitled to his opinion of course, but I think it's a total non-issue.
 

ChargerWA

Mark Loane (55)
Not a big issue but Mowen should be tapped on the shoulder and told.

I saw it and thought WTF too. Does he think he is captaining the Springboks?
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
It's hard to say that. England players are coming off a fresh off season. The Wallabies have had a Lions series during Super Rugby, after heading to Argentina, SA and now in the UK. Most of these players have yet to have a rest. I believe we roll out a few Second XV players especially in the forwards against Italy giving others a rest (Second XV based on form/limited game time)

1. Robinson
2. TPN
3. Ryan
4. Simmons
5. Douglas
6. Dennis
7. Gill
8. Mowen (c)
9. White
10. Foley
11. Cummins
12. To'omua
13. Kuridrani
14. Tomane
15. Folau

16. Slipper
17. Fainga'a
18. Kepu
19. Horwill
20. McCalman
21. Phipps
22. Cooper
23. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)


Swap Mowen and Dennis and I agree with these selections.
 

lewisr

Bill McLean (32)
Far out... Why are we bagging Mowen for showing some fucking pride in the jersey and country? I reckon we are one of the worst anthem singing nations in the Rugby world and it sickens me every time I watch another team stand up and sing with true passion whilst half our time lazily recite (or not even that if you're Sautia) the lyrics with a select few actually belting it out like they should.
 

Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Wasn't the best game in the world yesterday. George Clancy and the other officials had an off day, he's usually a pretty good ref. But as we're all apt to do if that bad day is against your team it can become a lifelong judgement on their ability.

But their bad day at the office pales in comparison to the awful performances of both teams yesterday. England rung the changes and their performances had a bit of a nervous edge to it. Although I thought Billy Vunipola went well in his first start.

Not so much Tomkins who was pretty bad, a real pity for him and his family as his folks chose to watch his debut rather than watch his brother play in the League World Cup. Still however bad he or the game was they still made the right decision at least IMO as I'd watch any Rugby game before a game of League.

Yarde on his 2nd cap was extremely nervous and made some silly errors that could have resulted in a yellow card. Farrell had a bad day with the boot and it affected his general play up to the point where he went over for a try. Thought Flood should have come on earlier but not sure he would have made much difference as only 2 of the England backs looked like they were firing, Brown and Ashton. Centre pairing didn't click at all.

Forwards didn't put in a stellar performance but that wasn't needed against what was a powder puff display by the Aussie piggies. I thought Aus did OK in the lineout even with the liability of Timani in there. Especially after his butter fingered attempt at a take very early on. It was probably the most positive part of Aus' play.

In the scrum England had your number but I'm sure that people who know a hell of a lot more about Rugby in general and the scrum in particular will be able to analyse it and point out why it wasn't the Wobs fault at all. I'd love to see that analytical power inside the Wob camp being used to improve what is a poor scrum.

At the breakdown the English had the upper hand but the Wobs didn't seem too interested in winning turn over ball. They didn't seem to commit too many to the ruck. England did pick a pretty mobile pack, especially by their standards. But still I'd have expected more of a contest from Aus.

I thought Moore and Fardy went OK. Howill certainly put a shift in, but he's still feeling his way back into form. Slipper and Alexander may as well have been binned for their performance in the scrum for all the impact they had in the loose. Mowen wasn't too bad but still not a performance to be proud of.

Hooper I'm not sure what's going on with him. Probably time to give his a rest and let someone else stake a claim then fire Hooper up to take back his spot. Timani to me is a luxury player and with a foward pack performing as badly as the Wobs are you should be shopping at ALDI and not M&S. Put a young solid lock in there and let Timani work on his basics.

England's pack, most of whom have been in pretty good form this season, weren't much better. I thought Billy Vunipola did really well on his debut but outside the scrum there weren't many standout performers in white with single digits on their back.

Robshaw is still trying to prove he deserves his place and the captaincy. I thought he was OK but any England captain will be under pressure due to the English system and the current generation of players. England have a lot of depth but the problem is it's one big plateau unlike NZ who seem to have peaks all over the place.

England have a lot of very good forwards in their system but very few players who are genuine contenders for world's best. So one or two bad games will inevitably lead to calls for someone to be dropped as there's a few other guys of roughly equal talent in good form for their club side. This makes it hard for England to have a settled side because their best 15 is not as obvious as it might be for nations with less depth.

For NZ it's not so much of a problem when you have 2-3 truely world class players fighting for a spot as opposed to England where you have 5-6 very good players competing for 1 spot.

As for the backs, compared to the forwards they weren't awful. I thought Cooper went pretty well behind a retreating scrum and along side Genia who had a terrible game. Since he's returned to the Wobs I'd have his solidly in the top half of performers for the team. Yes Cooper fell off the tackle on Billy Vunipola but that says a hell of a lot more about Vunipola's potential than Cooper's tackling. There will be plenty more guys fall off tackles on Vunipola over the coming years.

For England Farrell I thought was off his game, despite scoring a try. I thought Cooper played the better of the two. There's been talk of how Farrell can play a more expansive game in the future. But it's hard to see on this performance. He'll need a lot of work.

Ben Youngs didn't have the best game and the only positive is that he wasn't as bad as Genia.

Kuridrani definitely has potential and doesn't look out of place at test level. He just needs to pick up the caps and avoid having an absolute stinker. If he can avoid the all too often calls of "should never play for Aus again" that's used far too early for a lot of other players he'll be an exciting prospect at the next RWC.

His centre partner To'omua had a mixed game. Kicking wasn't great but he did well for his try and showed some sparks in general play. They look like a pretty decent centre pairing. The same can't be said for Twelvetrees and Tomkins.

Tomkins might have been nervous as he's been pretty decent since his switch from League. Twelvetrees needs his centre partner to be more of a threat for him to be effective. I'm not convinced by him at test level. He's one of those players that looks big and imposing but plays like he's much smaller and doesn't seem to be able to use his bulk.

Tuilagi is head and shoulders above any other England centre and even he still has a lot of development to go before he's consistently someone to fear. There are about 6-8 guys they could put in the centre beside him and it would be just about who manages to perform as to who keeps the shirt. With him out Lancaster should run his eye over as many of the candidates as he can.

On the wings I thought AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) was solid as ever and generally he's a good litmus test for a Wallaby performance. The further down the list of best performers he is, generally the better the Wobs have played.

Cummins needs to be involved in a game. He's not someone who generally stands out when he doesn't have ball in hand. I think he need to look for more work. He did take one very good supporting line but Folau didn't give him the pass.

Yarde just looked too nervous for me and never really got a chance to run with ball in hand. He'll get exposed against a better team like the ABs. Ashton for all that I dislike him looked like a threat and he's done really well to focus on his game and force his way back into the team.

Folau still looks very solid under the high ball. He was probably the best Wallably kicker yesterday, but the Wobs kicking is of a very poor standard overall. He's the most willing of the Wobs to run the ball back but the attacking patterns or support runners aren't there consistently enough to really exploit this. Having said that Folau was guilty of not giving the pass a couple of times yesterday.

I thought Mike Brown was excellent yesterday. Solid under the high ball, kicked well and ran the ball back with purpose. Easily England's best player for me. Just carried on his club form with a white shirt with such ease it left me wondering why the rest of his colleagues couldn't do the same.

Overall with the Wobs it's hard for me to see where Link is going with the team. apart from the Argentina game. The last game against the ABs I wouldn't count as it never really looked like the ABs were in danger of losing that one. For me that's not good enough for the Wobs unless you're sinking down to our level (Ireland) where not being blown away is a good performance against the ABs.

That attitude is a major factor in the stat that we've never beaten them. Obviously them consistently being the best team in the world is a major factor but there have been rare occasions where on paper Ireland put out a better team and still lost due to that mental block.

It was good to see that the Wobs showed some attacking expansive rugby against Argentina. But to win the 2015 RWC you're going to have to win at least 2 games like yesterday's affair where it's about getting stuck in and relying on your pack to perform just to keep you in the game.

The sad thing is that however terrible the Wobs were yesterday I still think you'll win the rest of your games on the tour. I'm just not sure what you'll learn from it.

Next up against Italy I think you'll win because changes will be made and a response will be demanded and duly delivered. Italy are definitely an improving team but they still need just about everything to go their way to beat even a poor Aus team. It's a pity because I think a defeat to Italy would do wonders for the team in the long run.

After Italy you've got us. We'll probably make a lot of changes between the Samoa game and this one. We've got a very long injury list at the moment and it will be a big test in only Schmidt's 2nd test in charge. I can't see use causing you much problems as Joe just won't have had enough time to make the necessary changes to our play style, organisation or attitude. If we get within a score I think most people will be happy and will (stupidly) go into the ABs game with some optimism.

Scotland are a bit of a bogey team for you guys but things are up in the air in Scotland with the head coach situation and I think for them it's just a case of trundling along until Vern Cotter takes over. Scotland are still in the stage of development where having a good go will keep most people happy.

Wales should destroy your pack, based on yesterday performance. But you've got the mental edge over them and they'll struggle to dominate. That should be a pretty tight game and in the last 10 minutes if there's a score either way I'd back the Wobs as the Welsh knees begin to knock.

Overall I think that the Wobs are better than yesterday's performance goes but still a long way from realistic contenders for the next world cup. Luckily though the same can be said for the vast majority of the world's top 10 and it's really about who can get their shit together in the next couple of seasons.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
Geez if holding the Aussie coat of arms on the jersey during the anthem gets up your goat, I'd say Mowen isn't the one with a "problem".....

Haven't read through the whole thread, but my observations of the test match were three key points:

- Genia was shocking. Not just poor or the old "got no protection from the pigs" poor. His execution, skills display and temperament was shocking. He probably should've been replaced just after oranges.

- OZ 10-15 probably looked the most fluent in attack all year from set piece. Makes a big difference when your 12 actually takes on the line with a bit of oompf as well. However there is a ways to go regarding the defensive trust between the players, in particular the 10-12-13 line.

- Lack of desperation at the collisions. There were a number of times where I even raised my voice at the TV saying, OZ should get that, but the lack of drive over the ball/ruck was poor. Whilst I thought the English forwards were very aggressive at the breakdown (albeit a little erratic and flying off their feet at times), there were opportunities to turn the ball over. And from that who knows??

England were pretty good defensively I thought. The pack they selected are good spoilers and spend much of their energy trying to disrupt the opposition and then rely on their no8 and the backs for the vast majority of their attack.
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
Some positives

Cooper - the long ball to Folau. He earnt his 13 grand with that alone.

To'omua - in his fourth test start is turning into a real asset. Couple of fuck ups kicking to touch but we've seen 80 test veterans do that and given them passes for it. Hopefully he finds that balance between distance and guaranteeing touch. He's got a level head. Instead of taking it to ground after the post deflection, he kicked the shit out of it. Would have been better if it went out, but it shows composure IMO. Actually capable of landing a garryowen where we have a chasing player headed. Haven't seen that since Larkham to Lote and Lynah to Smith before that.

Kuridriani - what a beast. Defence improving and that palm he delivered late in the game was up there with Cooper's pass in terms of entertainment value.

AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) - reliable as ever.

Folau - learning how to inject himself more. Not perfect on passing tactics but he's a handful and we need all of that.

Fardy - actually appears to give a shit, unlike the rest of the forwards (well, Hooper also)

Good calls. The only ones that clearly outplayed their opposites (IMO), were:

Fardy
Cooper
To'omua
Kurindrani
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper)

Just need to add 3 more forwards to that list and we will be winning. :(
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Bah! The socceroos got lambasted for doing it a few weeks ago so should Mowen. Fitzsimons had a rant in his column about them doing it too, and the history of what it really means, you should look it up. I think it's stupid for the captain of the wallabies to do it. What next, a haka?
Ah Fitzimons. The officlal doyen of what is Australian and what is not.

As a new Australian, I believe in doing the exact opposite.

Good lord Nugget. Of all the things you could complain about you choose that?
 

Scotty

David Codey (61)
I think the second 'not in touch' PK was actually from White, not To'omua.

It was as if White said to Genia as they swapped places- 'call THAT a bad game? THIS is a bad game'.
.

To'omua came up to take it then gave it back to White. It was definitely White that stuffed it up.

His over eagerness to kick is the real disappointing thing with his game though. 7 points down and ball on halfway - you don't need to kick for the corner everytime.
 
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