Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
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KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
I cannot believe there is a call to can Phipps.
This site never picks the same team 2 weeks in a row
While we are picking the team:
TPN to 2, Hansen to 16, manta ray out
Horwill to 5, Carter to 19
Higgers to 6, Fardy to 20
Speight to the bench, Hodgson out
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
I really thought Horwill was ordinary. I actually said to myself "its hard to believe this guy was once the captain" - and Im an admirer.
KOB1987
Rod McCall (65)
no sour grapes there?
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
Palu suffering from the Reuben Thorne syndrome I think here.
I personally don't think the balance is right in the OZ pack. They're not getting the go forward in attack in the back 5 that they need. So this means guys like Palu are singled out. It was the same with Thorne as he was fine defensively, but many thought he shouldn't be blindside because he wasn't carrying the ball with any devastation (plus the critics wanted Jerry Collins at 6).
One of Carter or Simmons hasn't really stepped up as a ball carrying force, and Fardy and Palu seem to like for like - good toilers and big defensive work rate. It's no surprise that Hoopah carries the ball so much during a game as a result of a lack of it coming from other players. Obviously TPN and Moore would make a difference here as they are both very good in attack. It's all about balance and it still seems off kilter to me.
I personally don't think the balance is right in the OZ pack. They're not getting the go forward in attack in the back 5 that they need. So this means guys like Palu are singled out. It was the same with Thorne as he was fine defensively, but many thought he shouldn't be blindside because he wasn't carrying the ball with any devastation (plus the critics wanted Jerry Collins at 6).
One of Carter or Simmons hasn't really stepped up as a ball carrying force, and Fardy and Palu seem to like for like - good toilers and big defensive work rate. It's no surprise that Hoopah carries the ball so much during a game as a result of a lack of it coming from other players. Obviously TPN and Moore would make a difference here as they are both very good in attack. It's all about balance and it still seems off kilter to me.
Inside Shoulder
Nathan Sharpe (72)
Good analysis.
Would you pick Higgers, then? Play him at 6, perhaps?
I am unconvinced by him but I think you have identified the problem and he seems to alter the balance.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
And here I was (optimistically) thinking that whatty would come on here to post a nice rant directed at the Boks 1st 5 for not finding touch after winning a penalty very late in the game.
OK, time for a few naysayers to get a gentle reality-check.
I know we all get a bit biased, but I was genuinely bemused after watching the game to then read this thread, and some other material, claiming Phipps was average / poor / shithouse and so on. Not a lot, but more than a few.
I wondered if I completely missed what was happening, or if it was a case of some perceptions being somewhere adrift from reality.
So I coded the game today and looked just at Phipps.
What did I code?
Passes and when they occurred - a fast delivery was the ball being passed straight away or as fast as was possible for the ball being trapped in a ruck and not immediately available.
Who he passed to.
Where the pass went - F = front (i.e. on the money), B = behind, L = low, H = high (over head or player had to reach up at all to take)
Error related to the pass
Error in option taken / decision - harder to judge and I'll explain why
Other stuff - kick receives, tackles, missed tackles, ruck assists.
Passes = 94 (48 1st, 46 2nd)
Fast = 82 (87%); Slow = 12 with 7 slow to come, 2 deliberate in last 60 sec of game, 3 where no receivers set to take the ball
Adjusted to Fast = 89 (94.6%) but note 2 deliberately slow (2%), 3 no runners (3%)
Note - 34 passes to Foley = 36%
Accuracy = 87 (43 1st, 44 2nd) = 92.5%
High = 3 (1 dropped, 2 had no impact)
Behind = 2 (1 lost possession, 1 no impact)
Low = 2 (1 cleaned up by Horne, 1 into touch but had advantage)
Adjusted for no impact / under advantage = 91 (96.8%)
Other
Errors = 3 from bad passes, 1 where he passed to an isolated runner (Simmons at 14.52) who actually called for the ball.
He also passed to static runners 3 or 4 times; 1 of these Palu dropped although the pass was fine, 1 To'omua got flat footed but almost put AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in with the grubber.
Kick receives = 4, includes 1 without clean win but contested and led to turnover for us
Ruck Assist = 3 (held possession x 2, lost x 1)
Tackles = 3
Tackle missed = 1 (Bok try, covering and missed Hendricks 2m from line on cut-back)
Quick tap = 2 - 1 questionable option
Snipe = 1
If any of that makes his game average / poor / shithouse then I just don't understand rugby anymore.
Fast pass rate = 94.6%
Accurate pass rate = 96.8%
Error rate is harder to score but poor passes causing disadvantage / missed tackles / bad decisions = 5% or so of involvements
Have at it, folks.
I know we all get a bit biased, but I was genuinely bemused after watching the game to then read this thread, and some other material, claiming Phipps was average / poor / shithouse and so on. Not a lot, but more than a few.
I wondered if I completely missed what was happening, or if it was a case of some perceptions being somewhere adrift from reality.
So I coded the game today and looked just at Phipps.
What did I code?
Passes and when they occurred - a fast delivery was the ball being passed straight away or as fast as was possible for the ball being trapped in a ruck and not immediately available.
Who he passed to.
Where the pass went - F = front (i.e. on the money), B = behind, L = low, H = high (over head or player had to reach up at all to take)
Error related to the pass
Error in option taken / decision - harder to judge and I'll explain why
Other stuff - kick receives, tackles, missed tackles, ruck assists.
Passes = 94 (48 1st, 46 2nd)
Fast = 82 (87%); Slow = 12 with 7 slow to come, 2 deliberate in last 60 sec of game, 3 where no receivers set to take the ball
Adjusted to Fast = 89 (94.6%) but note 2 deliberately slow (2%), 3 no runners (3%)
Note - 34 passes to Foley = 36%
Accuracy = 87 (43 1st, 44 2nd) = 92.5%
High = 3 (1 dropped, 2 had no impact)
Behind = 2 (1 lost possession, 1 no impact)
Low = 2 (1 cleaned up by Horne, 1 into touch but had advantage)
Adjusted for no impact / under advantage = 91 (96.8%)
Other
Errors = 3 from bad passes, 1 where he passed to an isolated runner (Simmons at 14.52) who actually called for the ball.
He also passed to static runners 3 or 4 times; 1 of these Palu dropped although the pass was fine, 1 To'omua got flat footed but almost put AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) in with the grubber.
Kick receives = 4, includes 1 without clean win but contested and led to turnover for us
Ruck Assist = 3 (held possession x 2, lost x 1)
Tackles = 3
Tackle missed = 1 (Bok try, covering and missed Hendricks 2m from line on cut-back)
Quick tap = 2 - 1 questionable option
Snipe = 1
If any of that makes his game average / poor / shithouse then I just don't understand rugby anymore.
Fast pass rate = 94.6%
Accurate pass rate = 96.8%
Error rate is harder to score but poor passes causing disadvantage / missed tackles / bad decisions = 5% or so of involvements
Have at it, folks.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
Cyclo, how dare you debunk preconceived perceptions with such rich analysis. Be gone with it
I also couldn't believe some of the comments here and on the fern. Phipps a huge improvement from previous tests in terms of delivery and just being in the right place when required. White stifled a lot of attacking ball OZ had in the first two tests, kicked when it wasn't required and "looked around" when quick ball was required. Phipps brought urgency and a touch of the dynamic to the position.
I also couldn't believe some of the comments here and on the fern. Phipps a huge improvement from previous tests in terms of delivery and just being in the right place when required. White stifled a lot of attacking ball OZ had in the first two tests, kicked when it wasn't required and "looked around" when quick ball was required. Phipps brought urgency and a touch of the dynamic to the position.
Benaud
Tom Lawton (22)
Just watched the replay. Similar thoughts to last night. I thought To'omua was great for the most part but man of the match is surprising. Kuridrani was head and shoulders above any other player. Izzy would have challenged but for those botched kicks.
I can't get on board with the halves criticism. The backline functioned very well on the whole given the conditions. Phipps made a few poor passes but gave much faster service than White recently. And his combination with Foley set up a lot of room for our 3 best players on the night to shine.
If Speight is fit this week, I can only assume he'll come in for Horne. Which seems harsh on a bloke that isn't playing badly but I guess that's the perks of a backline in form.
In the forwards, the back row all got through plenty of work again. Palu made a few errors again and seems a bit off the boil atm with ball in hand, although is certainly playing his part defensively. Higgers was excellent when he came on for the 2nd week running. He's playing the perfect "finishing" role that Link is after so I'm not convinced that great form will translate into a starting spot.
The scrum wasn't as abysmal as I rated it immediately post-game. There were a couple where we got smashed but it was almost 50-50 overall. Slipper gave away those 2 penalties in front of the sticks which hurt but was otherwise top class as usual.
The lineout was awful. There's nothing we can do about the hooker. We don't even have a first string state hooker available anymore, or even a 2nd stringer from our best 2 domestic sides. TPN's return will certainly help. Both 2nd rowers are really struggling. Carter I am convinced has been playing with an injured ankle for months and desperately needs a rest. He's just not getting involved, and the numbers get lower every week. And Simmons was just diabolical. He hasn't played well all year but this was a new level. I counted 4 penalties against him, one of which cost us a try and another 2 were completely pointless with nothing to gain. It would be a monumental shock if his name was in the 23 next week. Horwill was good when he came on and seems the logical replacement. I'd really like to see Jones alongside him with Skelton off the bench but that might be a bridge too far.
Overall, much improved on last game, for what that's worth. Outside 2,4,5 it looks like we have our best team in decent touch. Touch wood we get Speight and TPN available this week and can do a number on the Argies!
I can't get on board with the halves criticism. The backline functioned very well on the whole given the conditions. Phipps made a few poor passes but gave much faster service than White recently. And his combination with Foley set up a lot of room for our 3 best players on the night to shine.
If Speight is fit this week, I can only assume he'll come in for Horne. Which seems harsh on a bloke that isn't playing badly but I guess that's the perks of a backline in form.
In the forwards, the back row all got through plenty of work again. Palu made a few errors again and seems a bit off the boil atm with ball in hand, although is certainly playing his part defensively. Higgers was excellent when he came on for the 2nd week running. He's playing the perfect "finishing" role that Link is after so I'm not convinced that great form will translate into a starting spot.
The scrum wasn't as abysmal as I rated it immediately post-game. There were a couple where we got smashed but it was almost 50-50 overall. Slipper gave away those 2 penalties in front of the sticks which hurt but was otherwise top class as usual.
The lineout was awful. There's nothing we can do about the hooker. We don't even have a first string state hooker available anymore, or even a 2nd stringer from our best 2 domestic sides. TPN's return will certainly help. Both 2nd rowers are really struggling. Carter I am convinced has been playing with an injured ankle for months and desperately needs a rest. He's just not getting involved, and the numbers get lower every week. And Simmons was just diabolical. He hasn't played well all year but this was a new level. I counted 4 penalties against him, one of which cost us a try and another 2 were completely pointless with nothing to gain. It would be a monumental shock if his name was in the 23 next week. Horwill was good when he came on and seems the logical replacement. I'd really like to see Jones alongside him with Skelton off the bench but that might be a bridge too far.
Overall, much improved on last game, for what that's worth. Outside 2,4,5 it looks like we have our best team in decent touch. Touch wood we get Speight and TPN available this week and can do a number on the Argies!
I know, it runs against all orthodoxy of Internet Opinion Doctrine.Cyclo, how dare you debunk preconceived perceptions with such rich analysis. Be gone with it
I also couldn't believe some of the comments here and on the fern. Phipps a huge improvement from previous tests in terms of delivery and just being in the right place when required. White stifled a lot of attacking ball OZ had in the first two tests, kicked when it wasn't required and "looked around" when quick ball was required. Phipps brought urgency and a touch of the dynamic to the position.
But I was really puzzled that what I thought I saw (a pretty good but not perfect display) was being described as something completely opposite.
Of course, it did chew up 3 hours on Fathers' Day!!
Pfitzy
George Gregan (70)
Look that's all well and good, but I'm sure if you could just go back and score White's 2 games against the ABs on behalf the Brumbies fans, you'd see that he gets 99% positive for all categories because reasons.
And that missing 1% wasn't his fault - Beale was shit!
IT'S ALL A NSW CONSPIRACY!!!
THEY BOUGHT THE SUPER RUGBY TITLE!!!
I guess!
Look, before anyone says it, it's not anti-White, it was just a process of trying to critically analyse a player in a match.
As I have said repeatedly, I think both have problems at times, and Phipps had some big flaws in the past with his delivery. But it is hard to argue now that he is erratic, passes badly and is error-prone.
Yes, White is a better kicker, but of late, his kicking was not so flash.
I could go on with how the Phipps / Foley axis is complementary, and I suspect Phipps / Beale or White / Foley wouldn't necessarily work the same as Beale does not play as flat, and White is not quite as fast with his delivery.
I think both can improve, and hope they do.
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Quick Hands
David Wilson (68)
Did the NSW conspiracy theorists notice that in those last minutes 6 of the 7 backs were Waratahs? Imagine if we had lost, the thread would be running white hot.
Happy
Alex Ross (28)
He'll want to play better than he did yesterday for the Vikings. His ball security was very poor.
ChargerWA
Mark Loane (55)
I'm surprised that Folau keeps getting criticism for those two kicks that didn't make meters. From a side on point of view, he kicks the ball 40m down field from tight on the sideline and it lands just outside the field of play, closer to the line than he was standing. That means if the ball flew straight it crossed the line at least more than half the distance of the kick. But each time he was only awarded 10m or less. The touchie is indicating he has kicked it out only 10m down field where it has then turned and flown parallel to the line of touch.
I'd be interested to hear the point of view for someone who was at the game and may have had a better angle, but to me it seems we got duded and Folau didn't do as badly as some are suggesting.
I'd be interested to hear the point of view for someone who was at the game and may have had a better angle, but to me it seems we got duded and Folau didn't do as badly as some are suggesting.
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