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Australia v South Africa - Perth - 6 September 2014

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PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Cobus Reinach. Along with Phipps the best halfback of Super Rugby 2014.
Yep, our luck the weather wasnt that good, fit Pienaar box kicking. Hell he have now played 70+ test and still cant nail the 9 jersey, get other young ones instead. Morne Steyn up and unders is now been overdone for ages. What about Willie? Hell everytime he touch the ball something happen. I am so fed up with the Bokke under Meyer it aint even funny anymore.
 

Blue

Andrew Slack (58)
Like Morne Steyn or not he does not kick because he thinks it is good idea.

He kicks because Meyer picks him for it and tells him to do it.

The buck stops with Meyer. His game plan is flawed. It makes not difference who he picks. The will still kick the shite out of it, and try scoring is left up to individual brilliance.

Personally I would pick nobody from overseas except Habana and Du Preez but I think it would make no real difference. It's the least of our problems. We play caveman, knuckledragging moron rugby.
 

PaarlBok

Rod McCall (65)
Best on ground easily. With Read not at he's 2012-13 form, Vermeulen is now the premier #8 in the world.
My biggest worry about him , is burn out. The Stormers should have gave him a break when they were out of the S15 but he just keep on playing. The body can only go that far. Also think Etsebeth played well. He is probably the best nr2 specially in the lineouts. Is much more then just a aerial lock, defending and carry well.
 

Bairdy

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Etzebeth is in another class with Retallick and Whitelock. He's cut out the ill discipline from his game as well.
 

ACT Crusader

Jim Lenehan (48)
What are we going to do?

Watch more cricket :)

In seriousness though, you've made a very good point regarding territory. What I found interesting is that Morne and co despite kicking the leather off the ball, they really couldn't get your mob out of territorial trouble. OZ ball retention was pretty good in that last 1/4 and Phipps made a big difference in upping the tempo to get OZ runners going forward. Even though some of the Aussie attacking tactics were a bit dumb, the Boks did scramble for a good period.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
My biggest worry about him , is burn out. The Stormers should have gave him a break when they were out of the S15 but he just keep on playing. The body can only go that far. Also think Etsebeth played well. He is probably the best nr2 specially in the lineouts. Is much more then just a aerial lock, defending and carry well.


He's a superstar and would be one the first names on the team sheet, surely.
 

Micheal

Nicholas Shehadie (39)
The reason Simmons is there is because he is a better line out operator than all other locks in Australia and gets through a shit tonne or work every game. I in fact despised the bloke when he debuted for the Reds and lament the fact that I'm not his body shape as I could surely be a Wallaby if I was. But the fact of the matter is he serves a purpose.

....

Simmons isn't picked to be Eben Estebeth, Sam Carter is. Look at the good second row combinations and understand the roles required before you comment. Then direct your comments correctly. Something like the fact he gave away 4 penalties and we lost 2 line outs is shocking. Simmons needs to dominate the air and not make stupid decisions that cost us fucking tries like the one on Saturday.


I really don't agree with this thinking at all. I dislike the notion of players being picked to fulfil a "role" and then not being answerable to the rest of their performance when on the field.

Rob Simmons is apparently a good line out operator. I know little about that, so I won't contest it. He also gets through a lot of work, but so does Wycliff Palu, and yet people here are continually calling for his axing (not required now as he's concussed) because he doesn't make enough of an impact.

For me, Rob Simmons should be a good line operator, get through a lot of work and still make that impact when doing it. He's playing for the fucking Wallabies for christ's sake - surely there is a lock in Australia with that description.

If we start allowing player's to be weak in contact and general play in order to fulfil "special roles" then we're fucked. We'd have halfbacks that can't tackle but have mean passes. Props that waddle from scrum to scrum only to demolish them but do fuck all else. We'd have Jesse Mogg playing fullback and blasting the ball into outer space every time we kicked for touch.

To summarise, my problem with Rob Simmons and Sam Carter is that they both look like Tarzan and play like Jane. Rob calling a line out does not prevent him from smashing people in tackles and getting over the advantage line. What prevents him from doing these things is a lack of aggression and basic skills that is evident throughout all of Australian rugby.

What's the point of winning an opposition line out if when we win it our locks just flop over 5 metres behind the advantage line three phases later? What's the point of contesting a line out and losing it only to have our locks driven back in tackles? The fact is, the tight five are the engine room of all the whole team, and not just the set piece. I can understand the emphasis on wanting scrum parity (as to avoid yellow cards and penalty tries) but as long as we have a functioning line out (which we should be able to obtain under most callers) I would go for dominance in general play over aerial dominance when selecting forwards.

To finish, I'm not a huge fan of dirty play, but I honestly wouldn't mind seeing Hooper having to hold back Carter or Simmons from time to time as they try and rip someones head off for rubbing them the wrong way. They're playing for Australia! Where's the passion? At the moment, if one of them are pushed, I'd be more inclined to think that they'd go home and complain to their mother's about it instead of standing their ground. I want my locks to be the meanest guys on the field and our current ones are far from that.

P.S - cut the aggressive tone. The "mate's" and the "understand your roles before you comment" and "directly your comments correctly" aren't necessary. You are not the source of all knowledge on 2nd rowers and neither am I. Defend your argument but don't dismiss mine just because it conflicts with yours. It makes you look like a tool.

P.P.S - this stems from pure curiosity, would you actually have picked Simmons in the Waratahs 23 this year if chosen as the selector?
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
You raise some reasonable points but every player is a compromise in some way.

Israel Folau is a compromise at 15 because he doesn't have Jesse Mogg's kicking game. That said he's amazing in almost every other area which makes him close to the best fullback in the world.

I think everyone would like Rob Simmons and Sam Carter to be more physically dominant but it's not like we have an array of players who are better than them.

In terms of your PPS, in the Tahs 23 when we had Douglas, Skelton and Potgieter available to fill the lock positions, I probably wouldn't have included Simmons. He is definitely a set piece expert (far better than any of those three) but it wouldn't have suited the Waratahs game. They were trying to avoid set piece, not dominate it.

Test rugby isn't Super Rugby though and having your scrum demolished tends to be far less terminal at Super Rugby level than test level.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
There is specific roles. That's why theres positions. Your comment is like saying I don't believe in roles, every player should be a great ball player. Each position has a role they are supposed to fulfil.

A number 8 is supposed to be your main ball runner. That's why Palu comes under criticism.

A lock is supposed to be good in the line out, scrum and do unglamorous grunt work.

At the Waratahs. It worked but you had a regressing scrum and woeful line out with 3 locks primarily used who are all very similar in their play. Fucking oath I would have him based solely on that. Just because you got away with it, doesn't mean it wouldn't have improved the team to have a better line out and a lock, whose involvements aren't as strong but as plenty.

Likewise at the reds I would have had Skelton for sure as we were chock full of grafters who were good in the set piece and short on impact.
 
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Train Without a Station

Guest
BH that's the point I missed about compromise. The best line out operators are not generally especially physical players. Look at Sharpe and Matfield. That's because the body shape that's best for line outs isn't built as well for contact at 2m in height.

Brad thorn was a great physical player. He was also an average line out lock and short for a lock.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
One thing that Genia has in spades is sound decision making under pressure, a trait that is neither present in the games of Phibbs or White at a level to close out games. Phibbs made sum outright poor decisions neither enough to balance out the positive but hopefully he gets better with more time as will all the other hbs. Hopefully Genia returns speedily.


The reason that Genia has sound decision making under pressure is that he takes at least 20 seconds at every ruck to decide what the right thing to do is. It totally fucks up the rest of the backline and I hope that Genia does not EVER get selected again until he learns to act at speed behind the pack.

I suspect that being told that you are the best in the world often enough lets you believe you can think and play slowly as if by right. Gregan and Genia both started the slow play crap after their 50th test. I look forward to the day that Aaron Smith goes down the same path - he's the best in the world now - but I bet the NZ selectors drop him the moment he does.
 

A mutterer

Chilla Wilson (44)
A number 8 is supposed to be your main ball runner. That's why Palu comes under criticism.

A lock is supposed to be good in the line out, scrum and do unglamorous grunt work.

but they're NOT doing this and consequently cliffy is having to cover them for not doing their fucking job in contact and defense.

if they just did an ok job in the lineout i'd be happy. and by ok i mean don't fucking grab your opponent in the air. every. fucking. game.

one of them at the bare minimum should be bloodthirsty for the contact and to absolutely annihilate opponents in tackles/breakdowns and relish the fact that they can inflict enough bodily harm to make opponents have second thoughts about running at them again.

despite the ongoing argument about 'roles' it completely misses the point that this is about a 'job' - and it's there job to smash opponents into the ground and not give away penalties doing it. everything else is secondary.
 
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Train Without a Station

Guest
The locks are doing their job. They aren't doing it particularly well though.

Some could argue that Palu is not doing his job. Players are selected in positions. The arguments about roles and jobs is relevant. Why isn't Foley bloodthirsty for contact dammit!?

Why is Palu making more tackles? I honestly haven't watched any of the games in depth and this is the key point of it. Is Palu constantly getting himself into position to make tackles? At the same time, for example, was Carter in Auckland constantly getting himself in the position where he wouldn't have to make tackles?

Is it defensive breakdowns which makes attacking at Palu the best option so teams run that way? Of does Palu just get himself at the pillar all day to make a lot of tackles on pick and drives?

I'm asking because I honestly haven't looked that closely and would be happy for anybody to tell me otherwise. Tackle stats are an important stat but also in one way it just means the defense chose you as it's best option to attack more than others.

Rob Simmons made 4 times as many tackles in Auckland as Sam Carter. Did he work 4 times as hard? I'd fucking doubt it.
 

Ash

Michael Lynagh (62)
but they're NOT doing this and consequently cliffy is having to cover them for not doing their fucking job in contact and defense.

Really?

I can't say with confidence that Palu is covering for other players, or playing the type of game he slips naturally into, as it's something he has done so much in the past.

I think you have to be careful making excuses for players based on what other players are or are not doing. Sometimes it's a little more complicated than that.

Besides which, Simmons has regularly been in the top tacklers (until last game) and Carter the top carriers (until last game).

I think that Palu's natural game these days is a tighter game. He's not a dominant ball carrier at international level, he will work hard and do his job until he is replaced. I guess it would take specific coach's instructions to get him standing wider to take those hit ups, like a Read or Higginbottham for example.

If you are looking for a midfield carrier, then it isn't Palu right now, and you can't blame that on the locks. I think with Palu at 8, we should be looking to our 6 for that work, and to be honest, I thought that Fardy wasn't too bad at it anyway, so I don't know why his carries are not so good currently.
 

Braveheart81

Will Genia (78)
Staff member
The locks are doing their job. They aren't doing it particularly well though.

I guess it depends on what constitutes doing their job.

From purely a statstical perspective they're getting smashed by their opposition each game.

Against South Africa, our pair made 11 tackles and missed 2 versus SA's pair making 21 and missing 4. Our pair gave away 5 penalties vs 1 for the Springboks.

Simmons did have good run metres which meant our pair comfortably won that stat.

Whilst some of the blame certainly rests with Hanson, our lineout only won 70% of its own ball and 0% of the opposition's.

It seems to me that this is easily our weakest area currently. I'm not suggesting that Horwill and Skelton are going to be any better, but some of the arguments about Simmons and Carter's strengths being lineout, workrate and breakdown etc. are looking pretty shakey as they're just not cutting it at those key areas that are meant to be their strengths.
 
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