Wallabies v Barbarians - 1/11/14 (Twickenham)

[Viking]

OK, that's it.



What the fuck, exactly is wrong with out current set of locks?


(this is aimed at everyone btw)

In Simmons, we have a good lineout caller, a very good tackle, who pushes his arse off in the scrums and smashes rucks. He might have shit for brains, but, well, he's a second row.

Carter is a big, hard, tight working lock. He makes a shitload of tackles each game, is one of the best we have at smashing rucks and clearing the ball, he runs well (a little high sometimes but there have been plenty of runs this year where he's smashed his would be tackler and started pumping his legs and gained 10-15metres. Yes, against the ABs), is a good lineout option and does well in the scrums. MOM in his debut (with a fucked ankle = mentally tough), 23 tackles @ 100% against the Boks in CT)

Horwill: known quantity trying to regain his former aggression and form.



I'm struggling to think of a game that we could blame our locks for losing? Simmons and Carter have actually turned into quite a good unit, for a pair that are about 6 games into their partnership. Our scrum has been very good this year, our lineout as good as you'd expect it to be after losing Moore,


People: to build a team, you pick your best options from Super rugby (which we've done), and then you play them. If they aren't very good at a certain thing, you don't just shitcan them, you work on it with them. You let them get more than half a dozen caps before discarding them, because it takes 10-15 caps before you mentally feel like you belong. How many games have Whitelock and Retallick played together? Do you think either of them haven't had a bad game from now and then?

We are not getting above 2/3 in the world for a reason: Every week, our team is different. We are atm, a 'team of champions', not 'a champion team', and that is the difference. We have enough raw talent in the 23 to be 3rd in the world without really gelling as a team. Imagine what we could do if a clearly defined 23 actually gets the chance to build as a team!?


Cheika took 18 months to beat the Tards into shape, playing virtually the same 23. It takes time!

Saying that one lock, who wasn't good enough to be selected over the current test lock, at a LOWER GRADE, is suddenyl going to be better than that lock at a HIGHER grade, is just fucken retarded.

As things stand, our starting pack is this for the world cup. If Pocock/Moore or other injured players regain their position with form, then we're all the better for it, but right now this is it:

Slipper
Fainga'a
Kepu
Carter
Simmons
Fardy
Hooper
McCalman/Higgers (it's not clear who's ahead at this stage).


Yes, Pocock, Moore, Palu, Taf etc would improve it, but this is our pack. They need to get gametime together, as an 8, and gel as a unit.


Cadyrn Neville ffs.

I'll tell you what's wrong with our locks. Consistency.

Simmons only recently finding the form you described. Carter has already had a few poor games. Horwill struggling to find form.

To be fair I don't think they are as bad as some people make out. Carter is still pretty fresh for Test rugby so i will give him the benefit of the doubt, he is only going to get better and more consistent the more he plays.

 

[TSR]

Right wing.

He commands that 5m inside the right touchline...

I would lock him into that that spot, and whoever else gets picked for a wing spot goes straight onto the left wing.

Seems an obvious choice, but I wonder also if he wouldn't thrive coming off the left wing inside Cooper (or whoever the 10 is). He is great in open space, but he is also exceptional in contact.

With TK & Folau out wide, having a quality inside option would help spread the threats across the field.

Also, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) already does a good job on the right wing.

On balance, i'm sure you'll be right, but it wouldn't disappoint me to see AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) left on the right & Speight moved onto the left.

 

[Braveheart81]

Our locks are clearly about the weakest point of the Wallabies right now. Part of that comes down to the fact that the All Blacks have the best locking pair in the world and the Springboks have excellent locks as well.

The locks we are selecting were arguably the best performed in 2014 Super Rugby so suggesting that we just need to pick different ones and everything will be fine is a bit of a leap.

There's definitely an argument that Luke Jones deserves more of a go but many would also suggest that he's more in the vein of Scott Fardy and would be better suited to 6 at test level.

We certainly need our locks to perform better and perhaps Simmons and Carter isn't the best combination in terms of balance but suggesting that Neville or Jones or Skelton or anyone else will instantly solve our problems is pure fantasy.

I think Skelton is more likely to get a bench spot with Cheika as coach. I certainly don't see him starting.

I'd love to see Jones get a start at 6 against France or Ireland with Higgers or McCalman on the bench to provide some experience and impact to help finish the game.

 

[Viking]

Our weakest point is our bench. Especially our back-up props.

 

[boyo]

Pfitzy, you're confusing Cooper with Chuck Norris again, time to take your memory pills.

Are they the red ones? (I forget)

 

[Slim 293]

Seems an obvious choice, but I wonder also if he wouldn't thrive coming off the left wing inside Cooper (or whoever the 10 is). He is great in open space, but he is also exceptional in contact.

With TK & Folau out wide, having a quality inside option would help spread the threats across the field.

Also, AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) already does a good job on the right wing.

On balance, i'm sure you'll be right, but it wouldn't disappoint me to see AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) left on the right & Speight moved onto the left.

I'd disagree on a couple of points...........

Firstly, I wouldn't want to tamper with any of the formula that's made him so successful, inclduing effectively changing his position on the field which is the only position he's played for 4 seasons now.............. how often have we seen him fend off defenders with his left hand and somehow get around them on the outside within inches of the right touchline..............

Speight also goes looking for work, so he's actually scored a few tries for the Brumbies in the left hand corner..............

Second, none of our other wing options, bar Tomane (who can play both sides anyways), are traditional wingers and they can be put on either side of the field without any disruption.

 

[BDA]

I like the fact that Cooper is back at 10. Foley and Cooper both offer something different at 10, it's nice to have that versatility. I like the fact that Foley attacks the line, something that Cooper tends not to do, but on the flip side Foley doesn't have Cooper's passing game. With guys like Speight and Folau out wide, having Cooper on the field is a big plus.

Hoping Speight is fully recovered from injury. I expect he'll take a few games to find form so this will be a great game for him to stretch his legs before next week's test. I reckon he's going to be a big star for the Wallabies. Our answer to Julian Savea.

A lot of people bemoaning our 2nd row choices. I actually think that all of Carter, Simo and Horwill are capable, decent test locks. For the large part this year I would rate them as "serviceable". That's not a big wrap, but at the same time it's hard to blame our recent losses on those guys. The Simo/Carter combo did a decent good in SA for the first 60 minutes of the game. Likewise I thought they were decent for 60 minutes against the All Blacks (although to be fair I was drunk and im yet to re-watch the game). They are far from a dominant pairing though. I'm not sure we've found the right balance at lock. Simo and Carter seem a bit too similar to me. Good work rates, high involvement but no real physical impact. I don't mind the pairing of Carter and Horwill. Horwill is a pretty decent line-out operator but is a bit more physical than the other two. Simo/Horwill is a decent combo when on form. I tend to think we need an enforcer type lock being paired with Simo, as our best option. Guys like Neville and Coleman are options but probably too late for the world cup.

Next year a pairing of Skelton / Simo could work well. But at the moment I think Skelton is a bench option. Looking at how the Tahs used him effectively this year, it seems that Cheika worked out that he is best used off the bench to give his side some ascendency towards the end of the game. Cheika started Skelton on a few occasions but he seemed to settle on the theory that he's more effective off the bench. It is easy to forget that Skelton is still developing his game and fitness. As he develops he'll likely become a regular starter for the tahs (hopefully next year). For the time being I think Cheika will use him off the bench.

 

[Slim 293]

It'll be interesting to see who comes out on top in the flyhalf department............

If Link was still coach I would've expected Cooper to eventually replace Foley, but now it could go either way.

But if Foley is at 10 then we need a more reliable goal kicker in the team, and as much as I want to see the Wobs "dickhead" free, it might open up a spot on the left wing for JOC (James O'Connor) to return.............

If Cooper starts then I'd go with AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper).

 

[Brumby Runner]

Foley is a fairly safe bet at ten, he does most things well. Lealifanio is the more creative player.

Just my thought.

Foley a rock? More like a rolling stone when a bigger, faster ball carrier and he collide. He has been a good, dependable player in the absence of someone better (Cooper) but his defense is not up to scratch at test level.

 

[Dumbledore]

Anyone talking up Caderyn Neville needs their head checked. I'm sure he's a good dude, but he's not ready for the Wallabies. He had a good NRC, but not any better than Sam Jeffries, and a truly awful Soup season.

His game against the Force, that saw him dragged after 20 minutes, was just about the worst game I've ever seen from a professional rugby player. After that he wasn't trusted with any minutes I can recall until Pyle announced he was off to France and the season was already gone.

He's a massive bloke with a huge engine, but he's not anything more than an average player at the moment.

 

[Pfitzy]

OK, that's it.

What the fuck, exactly is wrong with out current set of locks?

They're not Brodie Retallick.


As others have said, there is a consistency issue there. Look at it this way:

Simmons - has proved to be very important to our scrum. I'm not convinced he's a lineout genius his supporters claim, because the amount of ball we've stolen has been very minimal. He runs a good attacking lineout though.

Horwill - should be a fucking BEASTLORD at this end of his career. Can call a lineout, is a big unit who up until 12 months ago was a gain line machine. But he's lost something.

Carter - does grunt work, sure, and that's why he isn't that visible. Because SOMEONE has to do the grunt work. His experience lets him down. He's been guilty of a few misreads on defence and some high running with the ball that you can get away with at Super level. He needs more time.

Skelton - technical issues to deal with, particularly at scrum time. Needs to lose maybe 7-10kg and get his power back. Again, like Carter, he needs more time.

Neville - big unit. Strong. Part of a pretty good Rebels tight five that did very well in the set piece from what I saw, and I can't believe that people are judging him by the Rebels' overall performance. If you want to play that card, then please fucking remind me where the Reds finished again?

 

[Pfitzy]

Foley a rock? More like a rolling stone when a bigger, faster ball carrier and he collide. He has been a good, dependable player in the absence of someone better (Cooper) but his defense is not up to scratch at test level.

Throw away Cooper then. Unless he's also become a defensive god in his absence.

Fuck this is seriously just a "But hey I know some dudes who tackle - Lilo and To'omua!" push to get your boys into 10 and 12.

 

[Ruggo]

Foley a rock? More like a rolling stone when a bigger, faster ball carrier and he collide. He has been a good, dependable player in the absence of someone better (Cooper) but his defense is not up to scratch at test level.

He gets hidden a lot in defense. It don't get picked on like when the old Cooper was. Foley gets hidden as the defending hooker at the line out a lot. More so at the Tahs.

 

[Slim 293]

Lilo and To'omua 10 and 12.

Great idea!

*original quote may have been edited*

 

[Dumbledore]

Neville - big unit. Strong. Part of a pretty good Rebels tight five that did very well in the set piece from what I saw, and I can't believe that people are judging him by the Rebels' overall performance. If you want to play that card, then please fucking remind me where the Reds finished again?

I agree with most of the rest of your post, but who's judging Neville by the Rebels' performance? He was the worst Rebels lock this season, and then had a fine if not particularly impressive NRC. What's he done to show he's ready to take the step up?

As for Horwill, he lost a hamstring. He's never going to be a power-running gainline monster again. We're just going to have to learn to accept it.

 

[fatprop]

Has a habit of not passing it to someone in a better position as well.

Yep, that is the downside of playing safer

But I absolutely despise the lollypop flop pass from contact that Cooper at his worse tries to do

 

[Tomikin]

Foley a rock? More like a rolling stone when a bigger, faster ball carrier and he collide. He has been a good, dependable player in the absence of someone better (Cooper) but his defense is not up to scratch at test level.

I meant more as a player maker then a defensive reader, his not a massive risk taker on attack which suits a more creative inside centre.

If you wanted defensively sound you'd go To'omua and Lealifanio but, they haven't really fired together this year.

 

[Brumbieman]

I like the fact that Cooper is back at 10. Foley and Cooper both offer something different at 10, it's nice to have that versatility. I like the fact that Foley attacks the line, something that Cooper tends not to do, but on the flip side Foley doesn't have Cooper's passing game. With guys like Speight and Folau out wide, having Cooper on the field is a big plus.

Hoping Speight is fully recovered from injury. I expect he'll take a few games to find form so this will be a great game for him to stretch his legs before next week's test. I reckon he's going to be a big star for the Wallabies. Our answer to Julian Savea.

A lot of people bemoaning our 2nd row choices. I actually think that all of Carter, Simo and Horwill are capable, decent test locks. For the large part this year I would rate them as "serviceable". That's not a big wrap, but at the same time it's hard to blame our recent losses on those guys. The Simo/Carter combo did a decent good in SA for the first 60 minutes of the game. Likewise I thought they were decent for 60 minutes against the All Blacks (although to be fair I was drunk and im yet to re-watch the game). They are far from a dominant pairing though. I'm not sure we've found the right balance at lock. Simo and Carter seem a bit too similar to me. Good work rates, high involvement but no real physical impact. I don't mind the pairing of Carter and Horwill. Horwill is a pretty decent line-out operator but is a bit more physical than the other two. Simo/Horwill is a decent combo when on form. I tend to think we need an enforcer type lock being paired with Simo, as our best option. Guys like Neville and Coleman are options but probably too late for the world cup.

Next year a pairing of Skelton / Simo could work well. But at the moment I think Skelton is a bench option. Looking at how the Tahs used him effectively this year, it seems that Cheika worked out that he is best used off the bench to give his side some ascendency towards the end of the game. Cheika started Skelton on a few occasions but he seemed to settle on the theory that he's more effective off the bench. It is easy to forget that Skelton is still developing his game and fitness. As he develops he'll likely become a regular starter for the tahs (hopefully next year). For the time being I think Cheika will use him off the bench.

2009 vintage Horwill might have been more physical, but her certainly isn't now.


It was him, btw who gave away that fucking stupid penalty on our tryline, and then didn't get back into position for what was the most obvious quick tap in history, and then missed the tackle.


Instead of hitting himself and yelling like a caveman, and then charging from the kick off to smash 7 shades of shit out of the receiver to make up for it, he just stood there gesticulating at the ref to try and claim Smith didn't take it from the mark.


200 Burpees for that.

 

[Brumbieman]

They're not Brodie Retallick.


As others have said, there is a consistency issue there. Look at it this way:

Simmons - has proved to be very important to our scrum. I'm not convinced he's a lineout genius his supporters claim, because the amount of ball we've stolen has been very minimal. He runs a good attacking lineout though.

Horwill - should be a fucking BEASTLORD at this end of his career. Can call a lineout, is a big unit who up until 12 months ago was a gain line machine. But he's lost something.

Carter - does grunt work, sure, and that's why he isn't that visible. Because SOMEONE has to do the grunt work. His experience lets him down. He's been guilty of a few misreads on defence and some high running with the ball that you can get away with at Super level. He needs more time.

Skelton - technical issues to deal with, particularly at scrum time. Needs to lose maybe 7-10kg and get his power back. Again, like Carter, he needs more time.

Neville - big unit. Strong. Part of a pretty good Rebels tight five that did very well in the set piece from what I saw, and I can't believe that people are judging him by the Rebels' overall performance. If you want to play that card, then please fucking remind me where the Reds finished again?

Exactly. Simmons and Carter are the two best of that lot, so that's it.


They play, and instead of just looking for someone who's played 20 mins of good Super rugby or NRC a year ago because an 8 test rookie is not as good as Retallick, you play him and develop him.


I think Carter will turn out to be an excellent test lock and play 50-100 tests.

 

[Scrubber2050]

They're not Brodie Retallick.


As others have said, there is a consistency issue there. Look at it this way:

Simmons - has proved to be very important to our scrum. I'm not convinced he's a lineout genius his supporters claim, because the amount of ball we've stolen has been very minimal. He runs a good attacking lineout though.

Horwill - should be a fucking BEASTLORD at this end of his career. Can call a lineout, is a big unit who up until 12 months ago was a gain line machine. But he's lost something.

Carter - does grunt work, sure, and that's why he isn't that visible. Because SOMEONE has to do the grunt work. His experience lets him down. He's been guilty of a few misreads on defence and some high running with the ball that you can get away with at Super level. He needs more time.

Skelton - technical issues to deal with, particularly at scrum time. Needs to lose maybe 7-10kg and get his power back. Again, like Carter, he needs more time.

Neville - big unit. Strong. Part of a pretty good Rebels tight five that did very well in the set piece from what I saw, and I can't believe that people are judging him by the Rebels' overall performance. If you want to play that card, then please fucking remind me where the Reds finished again?

They're not Brodie Retallick.


As others have said, there is a consistency issue there. Look at it this way:

Simmons - has proved to be very important to our scrum. I'm not convinced he's a lineout genius his supporters claim, because the amount of ball we've stolen has been very minimal. He runs a good attacking lineout though.

Horwill - should be a fucking BEASTLORD at this end of his career. Can call a lineout, is a big unit who up until 12 months ago was a gain line machine. But he's lost something.

Carter - does grunt work, sure, and that's why he isn't that visible. Because SOMEONE has to do the grunt work. His experience lets him down. He's been guilty of a few misreads on defence and some high running with the ball that you can get away with at Super level. He needs more time.

Skelton - technical issues to deal with, particularly at scrum time. Needs to lose maybe 7-10kg and get his power back. Again, like Carter, he needs more time.

Neville - big unit. Strong. Part of a pretty good Rebels tight five that did very well in the set piece from what I saw, and I can't believe that people are judging him by the Rebels' overall performance. If you want to play that card, then please fucking remind me where the Reds finished again?

Good post and agree with it.

Watch out for TWAS - you have been a wee bit critical of James Horwill