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Six Nations 2015

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Bardon

Peter Fenwicke (45)
Called it! Well done Ireland. For the record:

Wales 61-20 Itlay
Ireland 40-10 Scotland
England 55-35 France

So the three winning teams all finished with 8 comp points & the title went to the team with the best points differential:

Ireland +63
England +57
Wales +53

I'm guessing there were a few very nervous Irishmen watching the Orcs go nuts......

BTW, when did they sto having shared titles? I'm not convinced that PD is that important over such a short comp.

I texted my brother with 2 minutes on the clock and told him France won't kick it out if they have the ball at 80 mins. That was one time I certainly didn't enjoy being right. I was just waiting for England to win a penalty or turn it over and score under the posts.
 

waiopehu oldboy

Stirling Mortlock (74)
Picked the winners or the margins?

Mate if anyone picked even 2/3 of those margins they're either a freakin' rugby genius or know nothing about the game & just went for whatever was paying the biggest divvy...........

How's your gnome? Sulking in the corner or off hunting leprechauns & orcs?
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
We're voting on the team of the tournament tomorrow. I need about 50 votes just from the fantastic performances today. Overnight I've got to somehow narrow it down to 1 nomination per position. It's going to be tight in a lot of positions.
S impossible. Best you can do is pick a 'where wouldn't I pick current Irishman xv'.

I just tried that and I only dropped Devon tone for awj. Tried it for Wales and ended up with two new props and for England they got foxy as a new outside centre, warbs for Haskell and replacement for Hartley.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Mate if anyone picked even 2/3 of those margins they're either a freakin' rugby genius or know nothing about the game & just went for whatever was paying the biggest divvy.....

How's your gnome? Sulking in the corner or off hunting leprechauns & orcs?
Deliriously happy. Been sniggering on the sofa ever since Italy scored the last try
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Brilliant player, but France need a settled combination at halfback. They chop & change too much for my liking.
Was just watching ken owens again. Amazing comeback. Hibbard is going to struggle to warm the bench.
Heard nugget claim awj as best welsh lock ever. Post- lifting certainly.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
The importance of the points differential is what prompted the positive play and thus the avalanche of points this weekend.

Does anyone really believe that if the points differential didn't matter and all Ireland, England and Wales had to do was win to secure a joint title we would have seen the usual dour matches with 15-12 type scorelines.

There's no doubt that the weather sometimes makes positive rugby with teams looking to score tries difficult, if not impossible, in the NH, but more often than not it is coaches and teams going out not to lose by playing the percentages that results in dour rugby.
Part of the issue here is the role of defense. At Test level, if you just go out to throw the ball around like you're the Cheetahs, you risk leaking as many points as you score. England showed that all tournament; had they tightened up a little bit, they may have won the tournament handily on points difference. Granted, today wouldn't have been nearly as fun, but when it comes to the Six Nations, the Rugby Championship and the World Cup, I think teams prioritize winning over looking good.

Not that the NH sides are averse to running rugby in general, I think that's clearly not the case. But it takes a bit for the teams to grow into a tournament (hello Wales); they're not always going to be the Globetrotters in the first game or two, and most teams will focus on what suits the opposition before focusing on what suits the audience. I know demands are different in Australia for a whole host of reasons, but that's Australia.
 

Wales Fan

Alfred Walker (16)
Ken Owens should be starting for Wales come the RWC if he stays fit.
Someone on the Welsh management needs to show Halfpenny how to tackle properly too - tacking like he does isn't brave just reckless & stupid.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
I texted my brother with 2 minutes on the clock and told him France won't kick it out if they have the ball at 80 mins. That was one time I certainly didn't enjoy being right. I was just waiting for England to win a penalty or turn it over and score under the posts.
I sat there with my head between my knees in that "plane going down" position when France decided to run it out of their own 22 at the death. When they finally kicked it out... let's just say my beagle is still barking.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
Ken Owens should be starting for Wales come the RWC if he stays fit.
Someone on the Welsh management needs to show Halfpenny how to tackle properly too - tacking like he does isn't brave just reckless & stupid.
How many times has Halfpenny hospitalized himself by tackling with his head in the wrong position? Seriously, it puts his career in danger, the team in danger if they lose a player of his caliber, and it puts his future health in danger.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Ken Owens should be starting for Wales come the RWC if he stays fit.
Someone on the Welsh management needs to show Halfpenny how to tackle properly too - tacking like he does isn't brave just reckless & stupid.
I think his future might be at wing with Sanjay at 15
 

Shelts89

Tom Lawton (22)
Awesome day.... 3 awesome games. especially that last one. France as always had their one good game. Congrats to Ireland, they have been the best team this tournament I reckon so fair one.

However, this will come across as sour grapes due to the last minute thing, but it's one thing that really annoys me with refs. How dozy do they think a side has to be to pull down their own maul one metre from the when they need a try to win? Seriously!!!


Anyway congrats to Ireland, probably the best team this year.
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Glad it was Ireland that won but I wouldn't get carried away. Scotland and Italy were godawful. Cement is going to have to some homework on England if we re going to beat them in the rwc. We were one dreadful half of rugby away from grand slam ourselves
Very fine margins between Wales and Ireland but we have a little bit more to work on than you lot given you lot play one way and one way alone. There is also the added factor that you are in a group with Eng and Aus, we have France and Italy who are looking nearly as bald as me.
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Part of the issue here is the role of defense. At Test level, if you just go out to throw the ball around like you're the Cheetahs, you risk leaking as many points as you score. England showed that all tournament; had they tightened up a little bit, they may have won the tournament handily on points difference. Granted, today wouldn't have been nearly as fun, but when it comes to the Six Nations, the Rugby Championship and the World Cup, I think teams prioritize winning over looking good.

Not that the NH sides are averse to running rugby in general, I think that's clearly not the case. But it takes a bit for the teams to grow into a tournament (hello Wales); they're not always going to be the Globetrotters in the first game or two, and most teams will focus on what suits the opposition before focusing on what suits the audience. I know demands are different in Australia for a whole host of reasons, but that's Australia.

The point I was making was that because a win on its own wasn't good enough, but teams had to win AND score points, it changed the way they approached the game and thus changed the way the games were played.

I don't advocate chucking the ball around for the sake of it, but what yesterday proved is that rugby (even at the top level) can be played in a positive manner. Not even the most ardent supporter of 6N rugby would have predicted scores like that in a round of the championship. It occurred because the teams involved had the incentive to do so.

Those calling for wholesale changes to the laws should note yesterdays matches. There's basically no problem with the laws - the problem is the way certain teams and coaches approach things.

All top tier nations (including NZ, Aus & SAF) play conservatively when all they have to do is win.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
Very fine margins between Wales and Ireland but we have a little bit more to work on than you lot given you lot play one way and one way alone. There is also the added factor that you are in a group with Eng and Aus, we have France and Italy who are looking nearly as bald as me.
Absolutely true. I like biggar but given space, sexton can change his style and the game like he did last night. Still, don't know why scots fell for his loop moves when we had shown the method to shut him down.

Still we got better and better as tournament went on. Sanjay has finally established himself and Jon Davies is back on form. Now all we need is better props.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
The point I was making was that because a win on its own wasn't good enough, but teams had to win AND score points, it changed the way they approached the game and thus changed the way the games were played.
That's the thing: Events conspired to help create the spectacle we saw today, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect that that's how the game can be played all the time (at least at Test level).

First of all, you have three of the top five teams in the world playing a team that's falling apart, a team that still finding its footing, and a team that's a powerful basket case. Right now, if any of Wales, Ireland or England played New Zealand or South Africa or Australia, they might try to throw the ball around a bit and run up a score, but it wouldn't happen because each side's defense is too good (England would probably leak a few more than the rest; not sure about Australia). We saw record scoring today in part thanks to opposition teams that just didn't or couldn't defend well against the attacks they faced. Go back to last week's Wales-Ireland match, and Ireland attempted to play a bit more like they did today (they certainly tried to run and hammer the ball across the line), but Wales' defense just wasn't having it. Hence a lower score.

But both weeks were spectacles. I wouldn't trade Wales' record-setting tackles in that game for a higher score any day -- that kind of defense was something you rarely see. But I think today was something unique, and not something we should expect on a regular basis. Who wants to see Italy's second half every week?

But I agree that the squawks about changing rugby are over-blown, and frankly more political than anything else. Steve Hanson complained about the kicking in this year's 6N, but up until the Ireland-England game, the two teams to kick the most against England this year were New Zealand and South Africa (both kicked 25 times against England this past November). I think today showed how much refereeing also plays a role. How many scrums were blown up Saturday? I don't know if any game was stained with constant scrum resets and scolds from Sir. Offsides also seemed to be called more than in recent weeks, and when the players are keeping onside, that opens up a bit more space to create more positive, attacking rugby.

I don't think most NH teams don't want to play the kind of rugby we saw today (at least from the winning sides, and some from France). But to run up scores like that you need an opposition defense to capitulate somewhat, and you need referees who will let them play and keep them honest about the offsides law.

Just to be clear, attacking rugby doesn't always equal more points. That's where my disagreement is, not with wanting to see attacking rugby.

(At club level that kind of open play is a little more possible, but a lot of factors have to be in place -- like a healthy team with plenty of game time together, and yeah, favorable conditions. Harlequins try to play like that, and haven't had much luck with either factor this season, and their record shows it. And when things aren't clicking, the factors aren't in place and the opposition has a decent defense, Quins have given up loads of points.)

EDIT: Just saw an article about how introducing bonus points into the 6N would encourage more of the attacking rugby we saw today. I don't disagree. Just need to make sure something is worked out so that a team doesn't lose on points after winning every game.
 

mxyzptlk

Colin Windon (37)
Now all we need is better props.
First find the props, and then figure out who is better. (Something tells me you will.) I hear there's a big hairy B&I Lion tighthead just cooling his heels in Cardiff.

Speaking of Welsh props, did you ever review the scrum where Samson Lee tore his Achilles tendon? Among the many Wayne Barnes complaints I heard, one was that if he knew what he was looking at, he should have penalized that scrum a lot sooner, and could have saved Lee some damage. I haven't been able to revisit that scrum, so I don't know.
 

Cardiffblue

Jim Lenehan (48)
First find the props, and then figure out who is better. (Something tells me you will.) I hear there's a big hairy B&I Lion tighthead just cooling his heels in Cardiff.

Speaking of Welsh props, did you ever review the scrum where Samson Lee tore his Achilles tendon? Among the many Wayne Barnes complaints I heard, one was that if he knew what he was looking at, he should have penalized that scrum a lot sooner, and could have saved Lee some damage. I haven't been able to revisit that scrum, so I don't know.
Dont think there was any sort of camera angle on his injury. That scrum was a wheeled shambles. Look I love Adam jones. At every level he's huge. He's also taken the decision to retire and I respect that. Do we need him back? - Yes for better scrums. Would I bring him back? - not sure. Cardiff haven't exactly been a dominant scrum. I think I'll leave that to gatland- then complain like fuck when we give away penalties. I don't think he figures in the uber fitness plans of ch and look - Australia were until recently third in the world with a shittier scrum than ours. What I'm pleased about is that reports of the death of gatlandball have proved wrong - in fact Ireland for all the talk of a plan b are playing it too and tbh though I take your point re the opposition yesterday, the bois are back in at least the form of lions Game three or in the case of warbs, much much better. and we've got a better half back pairing now
 

the plastic paddy

John Solomon (38)
Absolutely true. I like biggar but given space, sexton can change his style and the game like he did last night. Still, don't know why scots fell for his loop moves when we had shown the method to shut him down.

Still we got better and better as tournament went on. Sanjay has finally established himself and Jon Davies is back on form. Now all we need is better props.
Lee is going to be a hell of a loss if he doesn't make it back for the RWC.
 
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