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Coaching Options for Qld Rugby

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gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
I seriously doubt that Toddy will be fired for missing the playoffs by one table point & I just can't conceive of him walking out with a year left on his contract, cut him & he'd bleed red & black.
Yeah, I get that impression as well. He's a Canterbury man through and through.

His record is really top class as well.

I'd still be wining and dining him as much as possible if I were in the reds though on the off chance he wants a change (it's sometimes surprising what comes up in people's minds).
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Just got to hire a coach that will succeed then. Easy.

I always wonder how many genuinly potentially super rugby winning coaches are

a) in existence
b)available
c)want to live and work in Queensland at the salary offered by the reds and with that organisation
d)have enough luck (keep their uninjured team on the field, get the bounce of the ball etc etc)
e) have a good enough history to even be considered.

The field must be vanishingly small.

And when you look at the super rugby winning coaches this country has produced Jones, Nucifora, McKensie, Cheika, to various degrees none of them had the proven track record of success that you'd ideally want going in.

So in short, I have no idea, and probably neither has anyone else.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
B and C are the issue which I think many of the people who have criticised the Reds over the past 2 years have not really considered.

The only coaches I can see having significant experience as head coaches and wanting to live in QLD are Tony McGahan and Michael Foley.

We would not want Foley and until this year there was zero reason to want McGahan, and plenty of reasons to not want him.
 
T

Train Without a Station

Guest
I think luck is an issue that separates the best. In 2014 Cheika was lucky that his only significant injuries were to Dennis and Betham who were 2 of the easiest losses covered by the squad he had.

An injury at 3, 7, 9, 10 or 15 would have been a disaster and severely impacted their season.

Not to deride their success because a lot of their result was down to hard work, but a small element of luck was that the factors out of their control (who fell to injury) fell the way that least impacted them.
 

Strewthcobber

Mark Ella (57)
Is appointing someone with a significant previously successful record as head coach of a professional rugby team immediately before getting the gig a good way to win the championship? Not if you look at history (and this is based on a very quick google so there may well be errors - please point them out)

2014 Cheika - previously sacked by Stade Fracais
2012/13 Dave Rennie - U20 and ITM cup (possibly hurricanes in the distant past?)
2011 McKenzie - sacked from previous two roles
2009/10 Ludeke - rose through the Blue Bulls/Bulls ranks (2 wins with the Lions in 2006)
2002/5/6/8 Deans - Rose through the Canterbury/Crusaders ranks
2007 Meyer - rose through the Blue Bulls and Bulls ranks
2004 Nucifora - no previous HC experience
2003 Sloane - previously successful with the Highlanders
2001 Jones - no previous pro HC experience (Randwick, Japan)

So where does that leave the Reds? I have no idea. Stiles?

It probably shows that you need to develop your coaching staff just as much as your playing roster
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
the practice among those with power or influence of favouring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.

If you want to be a pedant at least keep up with the modern usage of language. The original usage of the noun was indeed used to describe favours for relatives, especially the appointment of nephews, sons etc as Cardinals in the Catholic church. However the modern Oxford dictionary has expanded the meaning to encompass the relationships beyond the familial.

Linky:- http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/nepotism


This surely has to win the GAGR 'touché' award for 2015.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
Is appointing someone with a significant previously successful record as head coach of a professional rugby team immediately before getting the gig a good way to win the championship? Not if you look at history (and this is based on a very quick google so there may well be errors - please point them out)

2014 Cheika - previously sacked by Stade Fracais
2012/13 Dave Rennie - U20 and ITM cup (possibly hurricanes in the distant past?)
2011 McKenzie - sacked from previous two roles
2009/10 Ludeke - rose through the Blue Bulls/Bulls ranks (2 wins with the Lions in 2006)
2002/5/6/8 Deans - Rose through the Canterbury/Crusaders ranks
2007 Meyer - rose through the Blue Bulls and Bulls ranks
2004 Nucifora - no previous HC experience
2003 Sloane - previously successful with the Highlanders
2001 Jones - no previous pro HC experience (Randwick, Japan)

So where does that leave the Reds? I have no idea. Stiles?

It probably shows that you need to develop your coaching staff just as much as your playing roster


Why oh why have we started to get so het up re a coach's 'was once sacked' history?

Mostly, that has nothing to do with what's important unless the sacking was for some notable, serious misdemeanour or serious character flaw as is relevant to managerial skill.

What matters is the demonstrable track record of achievement over a coach's full career. And that there were sustained periods of success, or at least getting teams up near the very top ranking in their respective competitions.

This is where White, Link, Cheika shone over their coaching lives and RG, well, he was more a demonstrable black hole in terms of our universe's fundamental properties.

Paradoxically, my suspicion is that RG would be a better coach today if he had been sacked somewhere - that outcome can be cause for genuine self-reflection and positive internal change and growth. My related suspicion is that in fact he's too good for his own good at 'managing up' and charming his gullible bosses with his 'really good bloke' aura and evident capacity for weaving credible lines in excuses and evasions.
 
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Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Is appointing someone with a significant previously successful record as head coach of a professional rugby team immediately before getting the gig a good way to win the championship? Not if you look at history (and this is based on a very quick google so there may well be errors - please point them out)

2014 Cheika - previously sacked by Stade Fracais
2012/13 Dave Rennie - U20 and ITM cup (possibly hurricanes in the distant past?)
2011 McKenzie - sacked from previous two roles
2009/10 Ludeke - rose through the Blue Bulls/Bulls ranks (2 wins with the Lions in 2006)
2002/5/6/8 Deans - Rose through the Canterbury/Crusaders ranks
2007 Meyer - rose through the Blue Bulls and Bulls ranks
2004 Nucifora - no previous HC experience
2003 Sloane - previously successful with the Highlanders
2001 Jones - no previous pro HC experience (Randwick, Japan)

So where does that leave the Reds? I have no idea. Stiles?

It probably shows that you need to develop your coaching staff just as much as your playing roster


The thing the list shows me is that the talent of the new HC whilst important to long term development, with regards to short term results is more dependant on what they inherit in terms of playing stocks and to some extent game plans and structures.

From your list:-

2001 - Jones inherited a very good side from Macqueen with well establish and successful structures
2003 - Sloane again a very good side inherited and a compatible game plan
2004 - Nucifora. An aberration in the list give what has been discussed about his reign?
2007 - Meyer. The right man at the right time The kick and chase game plan was at its height with White coaching the Bok and so many of the forwards and backs coming from the Bulls to execute that plan. Again the plan was developed with Meyer in the system and he inherited it.
200X - Deans given his total lack of any results or even ability to create a workable game plan in totality at both the AB and Wallaby level it has been argued at length here and on many other forums that Deans was a custodian and inheritor of the brilliant production line that is the Crusaders, in much the same way that Blackadder has been. In so many key positions the Crusaders have been able to have an effective succession plan with success world class players transitioning through so many positions. Indeed the only significant import I can remember in recent times has been Nadolo. How much did Deans really have to struggle to bring the Crusaders with Carter, McCaw et al to winning standard? What systems did he have to create? I don't know, its a genuine question and one that I have seen asked many times.
2009/2010 Ludeke - as with Meyer before him he inherited a very good side and brought in a more rounded plan, but essentially stuck with the traditional/inherited strengths.
2011 - Link it has been discussed here ad nauseum that Link had the great fortune to inherit the backline he did with the playbook established by Mooney. Link brought forward structure and application. He also brought a consistency and a complete training/coaching group that had been missing especially around the S&C. But the backbone was there, it needed polish and an experienced hand.
2012/3 Rennie - took a Chiefs side and brought some forward application to compliment the traditional chiefs backline play. Brought in some new blood in the pigs and along with Chieka is perhaps the standout in the group named in how the team was changed and the game played for the side.
2013/4 Chieka - Fundamentally altered how the side played the game from what he inherited from Foley/Hickey.

I find it an interesting study and from that you have to say the Reds have a couple of years of woe in front of them, with some established top line players moving on, a pretty dire playing system excepting a couple of games and a defence pattern which is beyond woeful. The foundations of this side have to be totally dug up and relaid including in receuitment. That isn't a one season turnaround and whoever takes over needs a season to get the foundations in and the second year will show what sort of construction will be achieved.
 

RedsHappy

Tony Shaw (54)
There it is in a nutshell. The process doesn't matter as long as the right person is employed.

The real question in all of this is surely: what process of HC recruitment: maximises your chance of (a) getting the right new HC and (b) ensuring you don't miss viable candidates that may take some considerable convincing to come and join as HC and, related of course, (c ) not risking the unthinkable of another RG-like outcome.

Despite the woefully defeatist talk emerging here that there may be no suitable HCs around for the 2016-onwards Reds, and/or that it's all a kind of lottery if we get the right HC, and/or maybe only a very few candidates would accept to live in QLD etc, I turn to one of my favoured Reds HC candidates: Dave Rennie.

Now, there is a great candidate if ever there was one. And why would we rule him out?

A coach of this proven calibre will not leave NZ rugby easily. Most HCs there aspire to an ABs position next, or to an international position as way-station to the ABs in years to come.

But with the right approach, the right patient process (vs a thoughtless, panicky rush to near-immediately announce a new HC for its own sake) and perhaps say a $300k additional p.a. salary increment plus substantial $s success bonuses for S18 rank positions attained, all over and above the 'normal' base salary cost, who knows a Rennie might just be interested in a chance to rebuild a once-successful franchise whilst earning many more $s than he ever would in NZ. And the door back to NZ would not be at all closed, as it was not for Henry and Hansen when the moved overseas and thus coached against the ABs.

My point is that someone like Rennie would likely need a careful, slower and more iterative recruitment process to gain his interest, work through many issues, assure him of the QRU's integrity and his delegated freedoms as HC, Knuckles' residual role, etc., negotiate a highly attractive remuneration package, finalise a contract, etc.

That type of considered process (which would look for 3-4 Rennie-like candidates worldwide) is likely to be very, very different to the 'must hire now and announce now' closed and parochial HC recruitment process that I speculate is in effect operating inside Ballymore today.

Recruiting a Stiles or the freed-up-and-looking Matt O'Connor will entail a far different process and recruitment attitude than will one that aims to spend many months finding and hopefully enticing the best potential HC candidates anywhere in the world. Almost certainly, those latter type of candidates will take time to communicate with, time to so entice, and time to negotiate with (partly as their terms may be very demanding).

I also think - contrary to some posters here - that the Reds fans would strongly welcome the QRU announcing a patient, clear, well-reasoned process to scour the world for the best possible new Reds HC all aiming for a world-class choice, versus an instant gratification rush-job that no one understands and that merely lands a new HC of unproven credentials and/or is clearly high risk in terms of background.
 

The Red Baron

Chilla Wilson (44)
I also think - contrary to some posters here - that the Reds fans would strongly welcome the QRU announcing a patient, clear, well-reasoned process to scour the world for the best possible new Reds HC all aiming for a world-class choice, versus an instant gratification rush-job that no one understands and that merely lands a new HC of unproven credentials and/or is clearly high risk in terms of background.

If the Reds don't know what the state of the market is, i.e. Knowing what coaches are available and more importantly, coaches that are able to meet the selection criteria and may be interested in the position, then they'll never know. They don't need to go on some lengthy world wide search for a a coach. It is a total waste of time and money.

Not every form of procurement necessitates an open tender style approach. The Reds aren't a Government department, they don't have to follow an open and transparent recruiting process, no matter how much you may disagree with it.

At the end of the day, I don't care how they go about recruiting a new coach, I care about whether they select a coach that is a good fit for the Reds. This doesn't mean they have to be some big name, world class coach.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
If the Reds don't know what the state of the market is, i.e. Knowing what coaches are available and more importantly, coaches that are able to meet the selection criteria and may be interested in the position, then they'll never know. They don't need to go on some lengthy world wide search for a a coach. It is a total waste of time and money.

Not every form of procurement necessitates an open tender style approach. The Reds aren't a Government department, they don't have to follow an open and transparent recruiting process, no matter how much you may disagree with it.

At the end of the day, I don't care how they go about recruiting a new coach, I care about whether they select a coach that is a good fit for the Reds. This doesn't mean they have to be some big name, world class coach.

And s we come back to my previous point, that when the Reds board's competence has itself been called into question they would be ill advised to make such an outright judgement call. They got away with it with regard to the appointment of RG simply because they had picked a winner in Link. They have now picked a bad one and have expressed prolonged support for that pick regardless of the evidence. They aren't in a position of strength to go that route again.

Plenty has been said about the support of the Reds members for a rapid change, any change, because the board "knows" the market. What about the business executives who will be making decisions about sponsorships for next season? Do they want to see an open clear process to make these decisions, even if there is only one candidate to be considered? Given the issues surrounding the appointment and retention of RG I would suggest it would be a folly to not have a defined process in selecting the new coach, an apparently arbitrary appointment such as that of RG could have significant business effects if as I said above the Reds a looking at a couple of seasons of rebuilding from the ground up.

ALso in considering that point think of the issues surrounding the Tahs, reigning Champions, into the finals again, playing some of the best rugby seen in generations by the Tahs and they are struggling to achieve premium outcomes in regards to sponsorships.
 

gel

Ken Catchpole (46)
I would love someone like Rennie to come over, but I can't see that sort of recruitment being an open and transparent one at all.

I am dubious about the decision making skills of the QRU board given their inability to make any decision with respect to Graham, so don't know how they will go with the new coach.

@Redshappy and @Gnostic have very similar writing styles.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
I would love someone like Rennie to come over, but I can't see that sort of recruitment being an open and transparent one at all.

I am dubious about the decision making skills of the QRU board given their inability to make any decision with respect to Graham, so don't know how they will go with the new coach.

@Redshappy and @Gnostic have very similar writing styles.

RH and I have long discussed the Reds issues dating back to 2013 when RH first brought his worries to the fore, not surprised you would find our thoughts similar. Is that what you meant?
 

Quick Hands

David Wilson (68)
Don't underestimate the impact that a dysfunctional administration has on:
(a) the ability to recruit a good coach, and
(b) the ability of the coach to perform.

For years the NSWRU set the benchmark - the QRU seem to have taken up the baton, hotly pursued by the WARU.
 

RugbyReg

Rocky Elsom (76)
Staff member
Don't underestimate the impact that a dysfunctional administration has on:
(a) the ability to recruit a good coach, and
(b) the ability of the coach to perform.

For years the NSWRU set the benchmark - the QRU seem to have taken up the baton, hotly pursued by the WARU.

clearing $1million a year (or thereabouts) for the last few years aint bad.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
And again McKenzie was fired from his previous 2 positions.


His firing from the Tahs was an absolute disaster, caused by the refusal of the leather-patch brigade to go to him, apologise and beg him to come back after he took us within a smidgin of winning the final.

Getting fired from Stade Francais is almost a badge of honour on your CV. Most of their good coaches have been fired.

Neither incident said anything about their quality as a coach. O'Connor's reign at Leinster has been a litany of criticism and a long slide back from where Joe Schmidt took them. From what we know, O'Connor is Graham mark II.
 

Hawko

Tony Shaw (54)
I think luck is an issue that separates the best. In 2014 Cheika was lucky that his only significant injuries were to Dennis and Betham who were 2 of the easiest losses covered by the squad he had.

An injury at 3, 7, 9, 10 or 15 would have been a disaster and severely impacted their season.

Not to deride their success because a lot of their result was down to hard work, but a small element of luck was that the factors out of their control (who fell to injury) fell the way that least impacted them.

And this year the squad lost Sam Lousi and now Andrew Holloway. Two out of 35!

This was not luck. Those who think it is have not thought hard enough about why the Tah injury record of the last three years can be written down on a piece of paper smaller than one sheet of toilet paper. The Waratahs are conditioned in such a way that they rarely get major injuries. And they are helped by the fact that when players seek to dominate the collisions it is usually the opposing team that gets injured.

Is it not passing strange that the Reds S&C coaches left before half the season was over? Luck had nothing to do with the Reds' injury toll.
 
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