Coaching Options for Qld Rugby

[Train Without a Station]

You completely missed the point pal

 

[Lindommer]

TWaS, I don't think Hawko's rebuttal of your supposition could've been better put.

 

[Quick Hands]

clearing $1million a year (or thereabouts) for the last few years aint bad.

But they seem not to have gone too well actually administering the super side recently. As NSW discovered, a few unsuccessful seasons catches up with you financially in the end.

 

[Train Without a Station]

TWaS, I don't think Hawko's rebuttal of your supposition could've been better put.

Clearly you don't get it either pal..

I'll put it in a different context so you can look past state lines and objectively assess it.

Would the Reds have won in 2011 if Genia or Cooper went down instead of Hynes? No. That's the luck.

The minimal injuries is the planning coming to fruition. WHO those minimal injuries hit is the luck.

 

[Train Without a Station]

So in summation for those that clearly don't get it.

Low injuries = good S & C

The players who get injured = and element of luck.

 

[HJ Nelson]

I find this interesting regarding the Waratahs low injury rate over the last 2 years

http://www.waratahs.com.au/ArticleD...rst-analytics-project-to-reduce-injuries.aspx

 

[Train Without a Station]

But even still, some is beyond control. Such as Pocock under minimal load being injured 2 years running.

Reduction and elimination of soft tissue injuries is generally good management.

 

[RedsHappy]

Wayne Smith in The Australian today states:

- Frawley's report re the HC and Reds HPU matters now not likely to be the item that finalises the Reds HC issue at this Thursday's QRU board meeting. The previous assumption was the QRU board would vote on the report's recommendations at that meeting and thus settle the RG situation there and then

- new likelihood is that Reds HC position will be openly advertised, and RG will be given the opportunity to reapply for the position

- 'the longer the process goes on the more likely it is RG will be retained in some capacity'

- RG actively involved prior and still now in key 2016 Reds squad planning

 

[Tahtrajic]

I know it sound like I'm sitting on the fence but it's a combo of both luck and player management. But let's not forget the biggest factor the COACHING.
That is a combo of playing style, week by week game plans and last but not least the ability of the coach to get the best out of his players. This is where Cheika is light years ahead of RG.

 

[Quick Hands]

Wayne Smith in The Australian today states:

- Frawley's report re the HC and Reds HPU matters now not likely to be the item that finalises the Reds HC issue at this Thursday's QRU board meeting. The previous assumption was the QRU board would vote on the report's recommendations at that meeting and thus settle the RG situation there and then

- new likelihood is that Reds HC position will be openly advertised, and RG will be given the opportunity to reapply for the position

- 'the longer the process goes on the more likely it is RG will be retained in some capacity'

- RG actively involved prior and still now in key 2016 Reds squad planning

Hopefully the QRU don't let Graham sign the squad for 2016 and then the new coach is saddled with players he doesn't really want. NSWRU allowed Foley to do this.

Also I hope that the "openly advertised" process isn't like the ARU's world wide search for a CEO which resulted in the Chairman's best mate and neighbour getting the gig.

 

[RedsHappy]

As an aside, assuming the W Smith report I quoted above is accurate (and he has a symbiotic relationship with the QRU elite) and given the QRU's highly unusual communication re QC (Quade Cooper), IMO the risk increases that really good new HC candidates (the type that could happily stay where they are) will be more and cautious regarding the considering of a move to Ballymore.

Ballymore is starting to feel as though a place reeking of internal politics, board cronyism of the worst kind, squad unhappiness and badly rattled senior management still denying the reality of the RG disaster and its related, enduring problems.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I know it sound like I'm sitting on the fence but it's a combo of both luck and player management. But let's not forget the biggest factor the COACHING.
That is a combo of playing style, week by week game plans and last but not least the ability of the coach to get the best out of his players. This is where Cheika is light years ahead of RG.

Sigh.

NSW people skip the first part and just circle in on the luck comment and then get into a thrashwank screaming "OMG CHEIKA IS THE BEST HOW DARE YOU SLIGHT HIM".

The luck is the difference between the teams at the very pointing end. The last couple of %. It's absolutely pointless comparing Cheika and Graham because nobody considers Graham a good coach, nor he lack of success unlucky.

Considering you won the Grand Final so closely (Just like the Reds did), all that "COACHING" would not have helped get you over the line from contender to champion if you had lost a key player with lesser back up.

You may have lost your captain, but it just so happened he was the most easily replaced player in your squad. That's the luck part. Luck it wasn't Phipps, Foley, Hooper or Kepu where the drop from your first choice and your 2nd choice is quite large. You happened to lose a test capped back rower and just so happened to have 2 other test capped back rowers (Potgeiter and Hoiles) to replace him with.

Considering the Hoiles situation, having him isn't good management. It's just luck. Luck that he'd had a bad run of injuries and was from Sydney, so he was back living there and was able to train for an opportunity.

I'm not deriding the Waratahs success, just noting that all successful teams have a few things go their way. These were those for the Waratahs.

For the Reds it was probably that we never lost Cooper and Genia whilst no other team was interested in Beau Robinson and Radike Samo and McKenzie saw something in them to offer them a contract.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Hopefully the QRU don't let Graham sign the squad for 2016 and then the new coach is saddled with players he doesn't really want. NSWRU allowed Foley to do this.

Also I hope that the "openly advertised" process isn't like the ARU's world wide search for a CEO which resulted in the Chairman's best mate and neighbour getting the gig.

Well if we need to get somebody for unders, it probably will. Can't see somebody with no relationship doing a job for less.

Regardless, as we already covered, last time the Reds coaching search turned up with the Chairman's mate it worked out alright for us.

 

[RedsHappy]

Well if we need to get somebody for unders, it probably will. Can't see somebody with no relationship doing a job for less.

Regardless, as we already covered, last time the Reds coaching search turned up with the Chairman's mate it worked out alright for us.

In the latter paragraph, I assume you are referring to McCall recruiting Link in 2009 and you see that as justifying that type of 'internal mates' approach to coach selection?

Whatever, it's now clear that was more good fortune - luck if you like - for McCall as he and his organisation have only been capable of this as a 'oncer'. The next choice of RG, and much subsequently, has led to a disastrous period for the QRU.

The ability to show continuous good judgement, and select both coaches and executives well over multiple, sustained periods of time and sporting cycles, is what characterises true institutional and board room quality, not once offs that are never repeated or built upon.

 

[Train Without a Station]

In the latter paragraph, I assume you are referring to McCall recruiting Link in 2009 and you see that as justifying that type of 'internal mates' approach to coach selection?

More so just reiterating the point that if it works, it doesn't matter.

Weren't Michael Foley at the Force and Chris Hickey at the Waratahs appointed through prudent reviews? They never worked out at all.

People seem to think because somebody has a relationship they cannot be good at their role too.

Graham was recruited with poor Head Coaching experience. His relationship with the board is not the issue. His results prior to coming across are.

Much like Pulver. He is an experienced CEO in an entertainment field from a company with a similar sized turnover. It's not like they have plucked this unqualified candidate from obscurity. The Chairman just happened to know somebody with the required experience to do the job and therefore got him at a good price. Probably like McCall and McKenzie.

 

[Gagger]

Sigh.

NSW people skip the first part and just circle in on the luck comment and then get into a thrashwank screaming "OMG CHEIKA IS THE BEST HOW DARE YOU SLIGHT HIM".

The luck is the difference between the teams at the very pointing end. The last couple of %. It's absolutely pointless comparing Cheika and Graham because nobody considers Graham a good coach, nor he lack of success unlucky.

Considering you won the Grand Final so closely (Just like the Reds did), all that "COACHING" would not have helped get you over the line from contender to champion if you had lost a key player with lesser back up.

You may have lost your captain, but it just so happened he was the most easily replaced player in your squad. That's the luck part. Luck it wasn't Phipps, Foley, Hooper or Kepu where the drop from your first choice and your 2nd choice is quite large. You happened to lose a test capped back rower and just so happened to have 2 other test capped back rowers (Potgeiter and Hoiles) to replace him with.

Considering the Hoiles situation, having him isn't good management. It's just luck. Luck that he'd had a bad run of injuries and was from Sydney, so he was back living there and was able to train for an opportunity.

I'm not deriding the Waratahs success, just noting that all successful teams have a few things go their way. These were those for the Waratahs.

For the Reds it was probably that we never lost Cooper and Genia whilst no other team was interested in Beau Robinson and Radike Samo and McKenzie saw something in them to offer them a contract.

For real - you're quoting luck as the key difference between the Reds, the Tahs and everyone else?

Having watched the Tahs implode with injury for years upon end and then watched them march to the finals two years straight managing injury so well, I'd say pure luck has 4/5ths bugger all to do with it. Just take a look at the impact Rob Horne has had.

Add to this the fact that players will put themselves back in for selection a lot quicker when a team is motivated and performing vs when not.

Then you look at squad/player selection. McKenzie and Cheika carefully backed up youth and superstars with old stagers like Hoiles, Samo and the like. RG and the QRU have bet the farm on kids and crap shoots, leaving Adam Thompson thinking WTF have I done?

Grasp at straws, but not luck

 

[Gnostic]

For real - you're quoting luck as the key difference between the Reds, the Tahs and everyone else?

Having watched the Tahs implode with injury for years upon end and then watched them march to the finals two years straight managing injury so well, I'd say pure luck has 4/5ths bugger all to do with it. Just take a look at the impact Rob Horne has had.

Add to this the fact that players will put themselves back in for selection a lot quicker when a team is motivated and performing vs when not.

Then you look at squad/player selection. McKenzie and Cheika carefully backed up youth and superstars with old stagers like Hoiles, Samo and the like. RG and the QRU have bet the farm on kids and crap shoots, leaving Adam Thompson thinking WTF have I done?

Grasp at straws, but not luck

On the Rob Horne example, there is a tale worth examining in more depth. How did a player with chronic injury issues overcome them. Not just the rehab side but more importantly what changes were made to preparation/S&C training for him individually.

The only place luck comes in is in the bad kind like happened to Cooper this year with the broken bones. No kind of training can take out the mishaps. Not having an option to replace him with, a step down or not, is just idiotic.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'm comparing the Reds in 2011 to the other top teams and the Waratahs in 2014 to other top teams.

This is the top 2 or 3 teams in total each year.

What the Waratahs were doing in 2011 and the Reds were doing in 2014 is irrelevant to the winners. That is poor management from them.

The variance in the top contenders comes down to some fortune on the factors beyond your control.

You cannot see that it's luck you lost Dave Dennis in 2014. Not Nick Phipps, Michael Hooper, Bernard Foley, Sekope Kepu or Israel Folau?

Much like for the Reds in 2011, it was luck that we lost James Slipper and Peter Hynes. Not Will Genia, James Horwill or Quade Cooper.

Do you not think the Crusaders would have been strengthened in 2014 had Zac Guildford been in the team and Johnny McNicholl or Kieron Fonotia been the one injured? Likewise Jimmy Tupou not Luke Romano?

I can't be bothered looking at the 2011 Crusaders squad, but I'm sure one or two specific players would have strengthened them for the Grand Final.

You can manage and minimize your injuries. That's in your control. Who the injuries you get occur to is outside your control. If you lose 3 players in the 3 positions with most depth, that's good luck. If you lose your 3 most important and influential players, that's bad luck. Just about every winner has the former. Many top 4 teams have the latter.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The only place luck comes in is in the bad kind like happened to Cooper this year with the broken bones. No kind of training can take out the mishaps. Not having an option to replace him with, a step down or not, is just idiotic.

Why do people insist on harping on with the current Reds? Their issues are not bad luck. It's bad management.

You will always get injuries. Well managed teams get less. Injuries like a broken bone are just luck. You know what's good luck though? A substitute player breaking a bone. What's bad luck is your best player breaking a bone.

 

[Train Without a Station]

I'll just re-quote my initial point, bolding the key points for those who seem insistent in taking it as a slight.

I think luck is an issue that separates the best (Not the best from the rest. Separates the best) . In 2014 Cheika was lucky that his only significant injuries were to Dennis and Betham who were 2 of the easiest losses covered by the squad he had.

An injury at 3, 7, 9, 10 or 15 would have been a disaster and severely impacted their season.

Not to deride their success because a lot of their result was down to hard work, but a small element of luck was that the factors out of their control (who fell to injury) (Not the number of injuries - the players that were the ones who fell to injury) fell the way that least impacted them.