Wallaby 31 players for 2015 RWC

[Train Without a Station]

He was highly respected at the Force and is highly respected at the Brumbies.

Liked and respected are two very different things. People can be disliked, but still respected.

 

[cyclopath]

I could understand why the ARU or even Cheika wouldn't pick Pocock because of the "own agenda" argument - although I highly doubt that should be taken into account, but I agree it COULD be a possibility.

I completely disagree with your statement that Pocock is not liked by other players? WHO? He was highly respected at the Force and is highly respected at the Brumbies. His history at the wallabies is the same.

Who the hell doesn't respect Pocock? Why do you think this? This I believe this theory has been built from the Hooper V Pocock propaganda, or the Tahs V Brumbies propaganda.

Complete bullshit.

Scrubber's a Qlder. Can't recall any "agenda" by anyone else regarding Pocock being respected or otherwise, or any organised propaganda. I've seen people have opinions about who should be 7 or captain, which is not propaganda.

 

[Viking]

Scrubber's a Qlder. Can't recall any "agenda" by anyone else regarding Pocock being respected or otherwise, or any organised propaganda. I've seen people have opinions about who should be 7 or captain, which is not propaganda.

Liked and respected are two very different things. People can be disliked, but still respected.

I agree. But where is the evidence supporting this? I think it simply stems from when he brought up the homophobic comments during the Tahs match.

Can't think of any other incidents where Pocock would be seen as a player who is disliked?

He does A LOT of talking on the field at the Brumbies and seems to be a player most of his team mates look up to and listen too.

 

[Viking]

You only study your opposition as much as you play them though.

He would know every single player in England much better than our local based guys.

But we aren't playing every single player.

We are playing their test team. James Horwill and Rob Simmons have probably played England's test players as much, or more than Mumm. Most importantly, they've also played Wales' in that time. Simmons and Horwill have probably played Wales 10 times since Mumm last represented the Wallabies. How many times has Mumm played the Welsh test forwards?

So my point is he isn't consistently exposed to English test players. He plays each individual probably once or twice more than the Australians do. He just also plays against the ones that couldn't make it in between that.

Except teams would take most notice to the key players in each team - those key players would most likely be the Test players.

For example - The Tahs would surely have spent more time analysing Pococks game over Butlers.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Except teams would take most notice to the key players in each team - those key players would most likely be the Test players.

For example - The Tahs would surely have spent more time analysing Pococks game over Butlers.

Yes. But since they played them twice, no more than the All Blacks will this year is my point.

 

[KOB1987]

I agree with both points of view. But he offers a NH perspective on how to exploit the weaknesses of said key players maybe?

 

[fatprop]

Moore is the obvious choice for Captain, the interesting question is who covers the back half of each game after Moore finishes his shift? He won't be playing 80 minutes, more likely 50.

It will either be one of the minority likely to play 80 minutes in each game, or one a couple of "vice captains" who share the role.

"If" Hooper & Pocock are likely to share a shift (at worst), it could be both made "vice captains"

 

[fatprop]

I agree with both points of view. But he offers a NH perspective on how to exploit the weaknesses of said key players maybe?

He will know more than anyone else, and he was in very good form in the UK in a side known for playing expansive rugby, we have Gits and Mitchell being considered on their NH form, so why not him?

That said, if Horwill was near decent form, I don't think he would be being considered

 

[Brumby Runner]

I agree with both points of view. But he offers a NH perspective on how to exploit the weaknesses of said key players maybe?

Don't think he needs to be in the train on squad to be able to contribute though. I saw where Cheika has said there might (will) be a role for George Smith later in the campaign. It read to me that he might join the coaching/management side, perhaps informally, because of his inside knowledge of the French players and NH style of play. If that's what Cheika wants from Mumm, then he could have contributed in a similar manner rather than as would appear keep a better performed local player in Jones out of the squad. In any case, I'm not sure that that is the reason Mumm is in the side. Cheika has said that he wants to pit three full sets of tight fives against each other in order to find the best operators and combinations. That sounds like he sees Mumm as one of the top six locks.

To me, it is baffling that a player off the bench for the Waratahs is preferred to either of Jones or Coleman who have put in the hard yards all year long in our competition.

 

[ACT Crusader]

I think a better comparison would be Matt Todd or Marty Holah. Even when McCaw retires Todd will probably lose out to Savea and Cane.

Holah did play quite a few tests though and was the clear second choice for a good number of years. He was the starting 7 in Graham Henry's first test match series in 04 against England. Gill in my view is the clear 3rd choice.

The Todd comparison is a good one though given he is the 3rd choice behind McCaw and Cane

 

[fatprop]

To me, it is baffling that a player off the bench for the Waratahs is preferred to either of Jones or Coleman who have put in the hard yards all year long in our competition.

Playing devils advocate, couldn't the same argument be made against Gits & Mitchell?

 

[Brumby Runner]

He will know more than anyone else, and he was in very good form in the UK in a side known for playing expansive rugby, we have Gits and Mitchell being considered on their NH form, so why not him?

That said, if Horwill was near decent form, I don't think he would be being considered

Well, the really big difference is that Giteau and Mitchell were both proven test level players and Mumm never quite reached that level, imo.

Having said that though, I would prefer no NH player to be included until after they have played some good quality local rugby and shown that they have retained or regained their form from previous years. You might elicit that I am not a fan of the quality of NH club or regional rugby generally.

I have little doubt that Mumm will not make the final cut for the test squad. I have a fair degree of doubt that Matt Giteau will prove to be at the required level especially given the options we already have at 10 and 12, and I hope like hell that Mitchell does prove to be the goods because he would then clearly be the backup we need in case of injury to Izzy Folau. That is the spot we most urgently need quality backup.

 

[wamberal]

Playing devils advocate, couldn't the same argument be made against Gits & Mitchell?

Only when it suits a particular poster's purpose. I mean, some people think that George Smith is a serious option. Remind me, where is he putting the hard yards in?

If Mumm is a better fit for what the coach needs, then that is fine by me.

 

[KOB1987]

Don't think he needs to be in the train on squad to be able to contribute though. I saw where Cheika has said there might (will) be a role for George Smith later in the campaign. It read to me that he might join the coaching/management side, perhaps informally, because of his inside knowledge of the French players and NH style of play. If that's what Cheika wants from Mumm, then he could have contributed in a similar manner rather than as would appear keep a better performed local player in Jones out of the squad. In any case, I'm not sure that that is the reason Mumm is in the side. Cheika has said that he wants to pit three full sets of tight fives against each other in order to find the best operators and combinations. That sounds like he sees Mumm as one of the top six locks.

To me, it is baffling that a player off the bench for the Waratahs is preferred to either of Jones or Coleman who have put in the hard yards all year long in our competition.

And maybe that's the sort of role cheika has in mind for the rwc. But he is fit and in form so why not have him contribute physically as a part of one of the 3 tight 5 units and keep him fit as a back up option. Let's face it, our domestically based locks haven't really been our strongest point recently.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Playing devils advocate, couldn't the same argument be made against Gits & Mitchell?

Exactly. See my later post. In Mumm's favour is that he did come back early enough to get some game time, but did very little in that time to warrant inclusion in the squad. I suspect that one or both of the others might have found themselves in much the same boat had they had some SuperXV game time.

By way of explanation, I think the way it panned out for George Smith when he came to the Brumbies and demonstrated that he still had the ability to play at test level before being selected is the way to go. Unfortunately, with the change to the ARU's selection guidelines/policies we could well see a lot of NH based players coming back into the test side without any recent local form if they say they are committed to stay here the following year.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I could understand why the ARU or even Cheika wouldn't pick Pocock because of the "own agenda" argument - although I highly doubt that should be taken into account, but I agree it COULD be a possibility.

I completely disagree with your statement that Pocock is not liked by other players? WHO? He was highly respected at the Force and is highly respected at the Brumbies. His history at the wallabies is the same.

Who the hell doesn't respect Pocock? Why do you think this? This I believe this theory has been built from the Hooper V Pocock propaganda, or the Tahs V Brumbies propaganda.

Complete bullshit.

Agree he WAS highly respected at the Force WHEN he was there, maybe not sio much now that he jumped ship. His personal views on issues has increased.


I like Hooper as a player and Poey as well - certainly I am not a Tah or Brum

 

[fatprop]

I think Mumm is a squad option at best and his place will depend on Horwills form (who with any form is a better lock).

But as that piece of the puzzle, I don't think Jones or Coleman came into the choice. The two raw locks selected were Skelton & Arnold, to me they were who Jones or Coleman were competing against

We need some experienced, seasoned locks in the squad, at the moment we only have Simmons penciled in.

 

[Scrubber2050]

I agree. But where is the evidence supporting this? I think it simply stems from when he brought up the homophobic comments during the Tahs match.

Can't think of any other incidents where Pocock would be seen as a player who is disliked?

He does A LOT of talking on the field at the Brumbies and seems to be a player most of his team mates look up to and listen too.

Maybe they should dump Moore and install Poey as Captain......

 

[Brumby Runner]

Only when it suits a particular poster's purpose. I mean, some people think that George Smith is a serious option. Remind me, where is he putting the hard yards in?

If Mumm is a better fit for what the coach needs, then that is fine by me.

I hope you're not insinuating that I have been advocating the selection of George Smith while condemning the selection of other NH based players. If so, you are far off the mark.

George is an example of how the system should work imo. He came back and played plenty of time with the Brumbies, showing along the way that he retained the capability and form required to play at test level before being selected for the Wallabies. Others should have to do the same.

 

[Viking]

Maybe they should dump Moore and install Poey as Captain..

Could happen given Moore frequently seems to seek out Pocock before making a decision.

If Pocock didn't have the long injury he probably would have been named Captain after Mowen.