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The Wallabies Thread

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
WTF is the KPI/pre-requisite to be "world class". It appears to me to be an arbitrary moveable goal post set to "prove" an argument rather than a genuine critique of a player's strengths and weaknesses.

My biggest criticism of Foley was the inconsistency and limited kicking game he had, but that has largely been addressed, but improvements can always be made. He takes the ball to the line and is a genuine risk with ball in hand, is a reliable distributor (but far from the best passer of the ball) and the best defending 10 in Australia (To'omua is not a 10 IMO and even though a more dominant tackler he doesn't have the completion rate of Foley).

I do not understand the constant harping criticism of him. I support reasoned legitimate critique, but this seems more than a little baseless.

The biggest problem I see Foley having in 2016, 17 and beyond is the high risk decision to play in Japan and have no off-season. It has broken so many players in the past and is a massive risk.


Foley is great. I'm a big fan post RWC form. I agree with you on most of this post, except I doubt Foley is the best defending 10. His defence was average before the RWC. Post RWC he has silenced a few critics including myself.a lot of his defence is cover tackles. I'd easily rate Lilo above Foley, Lilo is also the primary organiser of the defensive line - something Foley is not, Gits did this during the RWC.

Also, after his wide-ball to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on his weak-side, I'd say he isn't far from being the best passer of the ball. Obviously not the best but damn good.
 

Gnostic

Mark Ella (57)
Foley is great. I'm a big fan post RWC form. I agree with you on most of this post, except I doubt Foley is the best defending 10. His defence was average before the RWC. Post RWC he has silenced a few critics including myself.a lot of his defence is cover tackles. I'd easily rate Lilo above Foley, Lilo is also the primary organiser of the defensive line - something Foley is not, Gits did this during the RWC.

Also, after his wide-ball to AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) on his weak-side, I'd say he isn't far from being the best passer of the ball. Obviously not the best but damn good.


I base my statements about his defence on the numbers. Lilo hasn't played 10 at test level in what? 2 years? Or even a test in that time? So really the only comparisons I am making are with Beale, Giteau, To'omua and Cooper. The numbers from memory show that only Giteau has the completion rate to compare with To'omua not getting the game time of the others. To'omua's the most dominant tackler of the set but his completion rate is effected greatly by the misses attributed to him by his rushing up for that big hit. I'd also add that nobody else in the backline has worked as hard in cover as Foley. His cover defence on breakouts was reminiscent of Gregan IMO with many last gasp tackles.
 

neilc

Bob Loudon (25)
Given Lilo's kicking (for touch and goal) last weekend in the NRC final I don't think you would have him anywhere near a 10 test jersey. His defence was good though.
 

Brumby Runner

Jason Little (69)
I base my statements about his defence on the numbers. Lilo hasn't played 10 at test level in what? 2 years? Or even a test in that time? So really the only comparisons I am making are with Beale, Giteau, To'omua and Cooper. The numbers from memory show that only Giteau has the completion rate to compare with To'omua not getting the game time of the others. To'omua's the most dominant tackler of the set but his completion rate is effected greatly by the misses attributed to him by his rushing up for that big hit. I'd also add that nobody else in the backline has worked as hard in cover as Foley. His cover defence on breakouts was reminiscent of Gregan IMO with many last gasp tackles.

As you note, To'omua really hasn't been given enough time in the game during the WC, but I'd invite you to have another look at his stats against Argentina (I think). Came on with less than 20 to go, and made either 6/7 or 7/7 tackles, most of them dominant. He is a better defender than Bernard Foley whetjher you look at completion rate or strength of one on one tackling.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
I base my statements about his defence on the numbers. Lilo hasn't played 10 at test level in what? 2 years? Or even a test in that time? So really the only comparisons I am making are with Beale, Giteau, To'omua and Cooper. The numbers from memory show that only Giteau has the completion rate to compare with To'omua not getting the game time of the others. To'omua's the most dominant tackler of the set but his completion rate is effected greatly by the misses attributed to him by his rushing up for that big hit. I'd also add that nobody else in the backline has worked as hard in cover as Foley. His cover defence on breakouts was reminiscent of Gregan IMO with many last gasp tackles.


Genia was just as good at cover tackles, not taking anything away from Foley who was also very good. Whilst his numbers may be good I don't think its a point on difference in terms of selection.

I highly doubt he was selected ahead of any of the other guys for his completion rate.

Another point which may positively affect his completion rate is that he seems to make a lot less tackles then the other guys do as he rarely defends in the line. I think it the Scotland game where he only made 1/1 tackle - great for his completion rate of 100%, but 1 tackle in the whole game, something not right there.

Foley is picked for his composure under pressure, ability to attack the line and overall wide skill-set. Hard to say Foley's defence was much of a factor at all in being chosen over the likes of Beale, Gits, To'omua, Cooper.

And I doubt it will be a factor in the future.
 

Sully

Tim Horan (67)
Staff member
As I understand it -'world class' means you would select them in your 'world 15' . That is a very subjective list if you don't mind me making massive understatements.
You just have to look at some of the crazy teams named in this forum.

Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
As you note, To'omua really hasn't been given enough time in the game during the WC, but I'd invite you to have another look at his stats against Argentina (I think). Came on with less than 20 to go, and made either 6/7 or 7/7 tackles, most of them dominant. He is a better defender than Bernard Foley whetjher you look at completion rate or strength of one on one tackling.



Even more reason to play him at 12, where he has excelled. Lilo would be my backup 10, with Jack D being the development player.
 

southsider

Arch Winning (36)
Oh NO Sully - that was all Beale! :rolleyes:

I mean, when has Foley even looked remotely like Larkham? LARKHAM was World Class. Did it all himself. Well him and that Gregan guy. oh and I see some old bloke called Horan played a bit at 12 during that period. And some other jokers called Herbert, Roff, Tune.

And does anyone remember if a "Matt Burke" was any good as a fullback? Says here he has nearly 900 Test points, but I find that hard to believe if Larkham was out there at the same time.

Larkham had to drag these losers kicking and screaming to a RWC title, so I guess Foley will just have to make do with being less than "world class".

Give me fucking strength.





Not aimed at you SoJ: but I would love it if they would define what they mean by this "world class" bullshit. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Its a fucking myth, is the problem. Mostly put forward by people whose own selection was proven to be not better, and often far worse.

Foley's kicking game: added 15 metres distance to his general field kicking compared to start of the year. Could be better, sure.

Foley's goal kicking: improved out of sight. Consistency is the key of course, but even "world class" players like Carter miss the odd one.

Foley's passing: short passing game currently has no peer in Australia in terms of execution and work under pressure at the line. Long passing game is not often examined because he does most of his work in traffic. If you'll turn your attention to the screens now:


So they can probably all ram that "world class" shit up to the third knuckle in their petulant arses. It might at least stop them speaking, or muffle it to a suitable level.



Who hurt you?
 

Jagman

Trevor Allan (34)
So looking at the SA sevens team I think it's fair to say that there will be many more Wallabies going to the olympics (if the ARU want to have any chance of a medal). Only two have put their hands up so far but I suspect that is because, a) they don't want to upset the Wallabies coach, and b) Australia have not yet qualified.

My preferred sevens side would be Hooper, Kuridrani, McMahon, Phipps, Foley, Folau, Speight (assuming he can get his speed and power back). Only two of these have never played sevens before.

If this is the case the Wallabies team for June-September 2016 will be affected and I'd say that means they will once again call upon AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper), Mitchell, maybe even Giteau, considering the importance of the Wallabies building on the relative success of 2015. Chieka will also need to persuade Genia and Kepu to play again if we want to be any good.

Start building to the future on the EOYT.

I'd like to see Kerevi moved to inside centre, Folau to right wing and Beale to Fullback. With Pocock at number eight we could really use a 12 that can smash the gain line. Mitchell might need to stay at left wing for now because there are no left foot kickers.

Young XV that could break into the Wallabies by 2019
Allan Ala'alatoa
Alex Mafi
Taniela Tupou
Ryan McCauley
Lukhan Tui
Ned Hanigan
Lolo Fakaosilea (no chances any time soon for a tradition openside)
Ross Haylett-Petty
Harrison Goddard
Nick Jooste
Harry Jones
Sione Tuipulotu
Campbell Magnay
Onehunga Havilli
Andrew Kellaway
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
The reality is all our backs (and forwards) will have to up their workrates off the ball if we want to really put consistent pressure on the ABs. Chasing kicks, running lines, getting back to give the catcher options, getting up and back in the defensive line, getting up and supporting the ball carrier etc etc.

Those are the things where the ABs excel and it is all down effort, selflessness and attitude.
 

KOB1987

John Eales (66)
I think you hit the nail on the head for 2016.

10: Foley, backup: Lilo, Development: Jack D
12. To'omua, backup: Lilo, Development: Goodwin/Kerevi
13: Kuridrani, backup: Horne, Development: Goodwin/Kerevi

I could be wrong but I reckon Godwin's ship has sailed.

Agree with Kerevi but outside him a youngster like Jim Stewart or David Horwitz could be more in their sights.
 

Viking

Mark Ella (57)
I could be wrong but I reckon Godwin's ship has sailed.

Agree with Kerevi but outside him a youngster like Jim Stewart or David Horwitz could be more in their sights.


Bit harsh to say his ship has sailed especially given how young he is although he does seem like he is on the decline but I couldn't think of any other youngster's with his skill or potential.

Plus I really do like the look of Kerevi at 12 and Goodwin at 13. There's something very Nonu/Conrad about that balance. Although obviously they have FAR to go and I'm admittedly being very very optimistic.
 

The_Brown_Hornet

John Eales (66)
Yeah it could be good and it would be even better if we could find a way to test out that combination at some point. Maybe in a Barbarians style game or something?
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
Bit harsh to say his ship has sailed especially given how young he is although he does seem like he is on the decline but I couldn't think of any other youngster's with his skill or potential.

Plus I really do like the look of Kerevi at 12 and Goodwin at 13. There's something very Nonu/Conrad about that balance. Although obviously they have FAR to go and I'm admittedly being very very optimistic.


Highly, highly unlikely in a team built around two playmakers at 10/12
 

fatprop

George Gregan (70)
Staff member
As I have said before this is a young side, by the next RWC the back line ages will be:

Foley 30
Beale 30
To'omua 29
Lilo 28
Kuridrani 28
Folau 30

We will have a pretty damn talented, experienced core back line
 

Slim 293

Stirling Mortlock (74)
As I have said before this is a young side, by the next RWC the back line ages will be:

Foley 30
Beale 30
To'omua 29
Lilo 28
Kuridrani 28
Folau 30

We will have a pretty damn talented, experienced core back line



And unless there's some serious fluctuations in form I think the majority of our current backline, sans Giteau and Mitchell, will likely be our first choice backline going into the next RWC...........

Experience counts for a lot, and all of those guys have that combined with good test form.
 
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