ARU take over the Western Force.

[mst]

$25m in higher ARU revenues means there is enough to keep these going.

That exact mentality is why the Force is where it is now. It is exactly the same thought process that made the ARC unsustainable and ended up as a significant financial loss.

If you are bleeding you just cant naively keep adding more blood as evenly you will bleed out. You need to fix the wound. So as harsh as it is, it needs to be self healing (self sufficient and revenue neutral) or amputated to save the rest of the body.

In business you need to spend money to make money, and to do so you need to invest it, not donate it!

 

[Quick Hands]

Over what time frame, how many clubs, and how much does that differ against past funding?

NZRU has 26 provincial unions so $9mil equates to approximately $350k per union that then needs to be spread across their clubs.

In NZ terms, that's still fine. They have a smaller economy and rugby has very little real opposition from other sports for the best kids (or any kids for that matter).

In the Australian context, we can't waste a cent - and I'm not sure that the management at the ARU really get the issues. Their recently announced strategic plan had some good stuff in it, but most of it is long term, expensive and will require money and resources for a significant time. (And that's just to get back what we've lost in the last 15 years, let alone expand).

I remember well how people on these threads told us how an independent ARU board would cure all the problems at management level and things would all be rosy.

Money is part of the problem, but knowing how to spend it wisely is just as important.

 

[Beer Baron]

Force would also be struggling due to the general economic downturn in perth and loss of potential sponsors and less expats from rugby strongholds.

I would like to see a write up - similar to the best super champions one recently as to which franchise is the most dissapointing. I think all can stake their claim.

 

[mst]

And while all this is happening the number of young kids playing rugby (and thus becoming future money spending fans) is decreasing. Junior clubs which used to have to run joint ventures in 15s are now having to run them in 12s.

That is why I found it interesting that when Jones won his injunction against the Brumbies Board, one of his first acts after returning to work was to meet with the Club Presidents (except for the club with significant commercial interest in the community who abstained).

 

[TOCC]

It's taken me a while to come to this,but I actually agree with the sentiment that the Western Force should have been a second Sydney team, local derbies are the biggest games of the season in NRL/AFL/A-League, and rather then competing within the same Sydney market, additional teams provide a mutually beneficial relationship due to the increased exposure. It's probably too late to change now, this should have been a decision made at the very start.

 

[Tomikin]

Too many losing seasons has put the Force in this position. The fans were there and sponsorship dollars were there but we kept putting out losing seasons and the interest died from all but the die hards.

Spend some cash, get some exciting players into the Force, get a coach that can put an attractive product on the park, win games, generate interest, fans come back, revenue increases, sponsors like what they see and want to invest. This can be done if you have motivated people with sound management experience that can think outside the box. And any board members whose asses have put down roots in the establishment move them on.

I hope the ARU has the interests of WA at the forefront of their thinking with this move. We don't want to see a siphoning off of our best up and coming players across to the Warratahs as a managerial move to help reduce our player payments.

Lets Go Force rise from the ashes and be the great club you can be!

I don't think it needs to be a coach that puts an attractive product on the park.. Jake White dragged the brumbies out of 2011 by playing a game most people hate.. but he won, he got rid of dead rot and did it his way.. Get a world class coach players want to play for..

 

[Train Without a Station]

It's taken me a while to come to this,but I actually agree with the sentiment that the Western Force should have been a second Sydney team, local derbies are the biggest games of the season in NRL/AFL/A-League, and rather then competing within the same Sydney market, additional teams provide a mutually beneficial relationship due to the increased exposure. It's probably too late to change now, this should have been a decision made at the very start.

But would that have resulted in double the commercial support and crowds of the Waratahs? Or would it have taken some of the Waratahs support and sponsors, and brought in a few of their own but resulted in similar numbers to the Force?

Based on what the Waratahs made in 2014, there's a very good chance that th ARU would now be bailing out 2 teams.

 

[wamberal]

The reason that the Western Force bid was accepted (not at the expense of a second Sydney franchise, incidentally, but in competition with a bid from the VRU) was because the proponents were able to demonstrate huge public support.

And the Force started out with bloody good crowds.


Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Proves nothing, of course, the decision was the right one at the time.

 

[mst]

It's taken me a while to come to this,but I actually agree with the sentiment that the Western Force should have been a second Sydney team, local derbies are the biggest games of the season in NRL/AFL/A-League, and rather then competing within the same Sydney market, additional teams provide a mutually beneficial relationship due to the increased exposure. It's probably too late to change now, this should have been a decision made at the very start.

On paper and in theory this is a great idea.

Except there is one glaringly obvious problem; the Waratahs have had exclusive access to all of the resources and still struggle. Halving the Waratahs resourcesand market would be catastrophic.

The uncomfortable truth andreality in this which everyone is avoiding and scared to even contemplate is if the untapped oasis of western Sydney is close to what its being claimed to be, so much so it could support another team, then strategically the ARU and the game here in Australia is better off moving the Tahs to WesternSydney immediately, reinvent their identity and tap the resources.

If the Tahs lost 50% of its support but gained what is being claimed as enough untapped support to sustain another team in Sydney then they would be ahead by at least 25% in their supporter base. That would help all Rugby in NSW and the the country.

At the end of the current SANZAR contract you either establish a new Sydney based team or bring back the Force to Sydney.

 

[Quick Hands]

I don't think it needs to be a coach that puts an attractive product on the park.. Jake White dragged the brumbies out of 2011 by playing a game most people hate.. but he won, he got rid of dead rot and did it his way.. Get a world class coach players want to play for..

But if you play a style that everyone hates, then you have to win - unfortunately Foley's track record is to play the game that everyone hates and lose. It's the same lose ugly style that saw Waratah crowds go grom 30,000 to 13,000 in 3 or 4 years.

 

[Tomikin]

But if you play a style that everyone hates, then you have to win - unfortunately Foley's track record is to play the game that everyone hates and lose. It's the same lose ugly style that saw Waratah crowds go grom 30,000 to 13,000 in 3 or 4 years.

Agree just saying that its a world class coach not a style that gets you there

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

[Quick Hands]

But would that have resulted in double the commercial support and crowds of the Waratahs? Or would it have taken some of the Waratahs support and sponsors, and brought in a few of their own but resulted in similar numbers to the Force?

Based on what the Waratahs made in 2014, there's a very good chance that th ARU would now be bailing out 2 teams.

We'll never know - what we do know is that in both AFL and soccer, that the establishment of a 2nd Sydney team in the west has seen support at corporate and fan level grow.

Most of the Waratah's woes were self-inflicted by the board and the coaches they appointed.

 

[Beer Baron]

Some analysis needs to go into what made the storm work so well. C.f. with other league and union ventures. Top of my head they gpt a respected coach, and old heads to build the culture (only lazurus and kearney come to mind). But they nailed it.

Force bought superstars but clearly the wrong ones and with the wrong coach. Frustratingly the rebels bought even less appropriate superstars and we all know how that worked for them.

 

[No4918]

Is it time for a serious discussion about the ability of Aus to support 5 sides? People keep saying losing seasons are part of the prroblem and I see many more on the horizon with the loss of so many players.

 

[Train Without a Station]

We'll never know - what we do know is that in both AFL and soccer, that the establishment of a 2nd Sydney team in the west has seen support at corporate and fan level grow.

Most of the Waratah's woes were self-inflicted by the board and the coaches they appointed.

Ok.

So let's ignore the Giants. Why?

Because in 2015 they averaged 10k attendance which is less than the force and were founded on huge capital injection by the AFL and huge draft concessions.

Most proponents of the force argue if the ARU had been able to provide that type of support they'd be in a much better position.

The Wanderers average 12k at every home game. Basically the same as the Force, but were initially very successful. In their first season Sydney FC had their average attendance spike at 18k but it has since dropped slightly each year down to the low 17ks basically on par with their first ever season.

So the Giants pull less fans, the Wanderers only pull the same amount despite quite a bit of initial success and over time after an initial spike, Sydney FC have dropped to their first year levels.

The swans saw their average attendance drop by 5k the year before the Giants entered the comp. This was despite their climb from 12th in 2009 to finish 5th and 6th in the next 2 seasons. In the Giants first year they finished 1st, won the Grand Final and were still down on average attendance prior to GWS.

Their average attendance in 2015 was 700 higher than 2010.

So the swans have definitely seen an impact.

Then there's the other considerations.

If there was a Western Sydney team, would they play at Homebush? If so would the stadium have offered the same incentives for Waratahs games. The team made $400k in 2014. Take out the crowds from 2 Homebush semis and incentives for their Brumbies and Crusaders games and it's probably closer to a $400k loss.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The Waratahs were a risk of starting 2016 without a major sponsor weren't they?

 

[Strewthcobber]

Some analysis needs to go into what made the storm work so well. C.f. with other league and union ventures. Top of my head they gpt a respected coach, and old heads to build the culture (only lazurus and kearney come to mind). But they nailed it.

Force bought superstars but clearly the wrong ones and with the wrong coach. Frustratingly the rebels bought even less appropriate superstars and we all know how that worked for them.

The cynic in me suggest their model was massive salary cap rorts and no need to balance the books (They are propped up by even now as part of the sale by News Ltd to the tune of millions of dollars a year).

They hope the facility will offset continued financial losses for the Storm, which effectively breaks even each season but only after receiving an additional $26.5 million over six years as part of the terms of News Corp, once owner of the club, exiting its half-stake in the NRL in 2012.

 

[kiap]

Some analysis needs to go into what made the storm work so well.

They busted a cap in the NRL's a**.

Salary cap, that is ... and only got busted themselves down the track.

If you've got enough money, it papers over all the cracks.

Funnily enough, the Force tried something similar on a smaller scale when they started ... and they would have got away with it too, if it wasn't for that pesky, flaky Firepower.

 

[kiap]

Is it time for a serious discussion about the ability of Aus to support 5 sides? People keep saying losing seasons are part of the prroblem and I see many more on the horizon with the loss of so many players.

Discuss, by all means.

Losing seasons are not the problem, though.

There can only be one competition winner so, by definition, 95% of super teams will be losers this season.

Or, if you want less trolling, around 50% will have a losing record. So what do you do ... keep cutting teams until there's the ultimate successful side that simply doesn't lose?

 

[Train Without a Station]

Exactly kiap.

People are looking at this the wrong way. It's not necessarily about results on the field. It's financial security off the field.

We are a nation that in our sport has been ranked from 2nd to the absolute lowest point of 6th in the last decade. How has that helped? We are almost broke.

Who cares how poor teams are if they make money and get punters through the gates? Melbourne Storm are a horrible example. Their exceptional winning record has seen almost no growth in crowds and after years of being propped up they show almost no sign of being financially sustainable long term.

The teams you need to look at are teams like the Richmond Tigers in the AFL. Despite having something like 4 finals appearances in 30 years they are a powerhouse club with plenty of financial security.