ARU take over the Western Force.

[Train Without a Station]

Fuck Scrubber do you read any earlier posts?

How is their production of talent a problem? I don't see them failing to fill roster spots at all - theres players out there.

Their problem is their inability to produce local fans. You can say winning helps that but the Waratahs hardly sold the joint out winning the competition.

You can always import talent. You will never not be able to find professional rugby players. You will never go broke simply because of results.

Fans and corporate support are the issue. Winning does not just resolve this. Look at the Waratahs, look at the Melbourne Storm. Winning has not resulted in financial security. The Storm after being successful from inception are still not sustainable almost 20 years later.

The Richmond Tigers despite alienating their fanbase in a QLD Reds manner in the 80s and making the finals less than 4 times in 30 years are quite successful.

Fremantle have never won a premiership in their existence. Despite this they have close to $10M in net assets and sit in the middle of the range for AFL profits.

 

[TOCC]

. The Waratahs weren't getting huge numbers to the regular season Waratahs games at Homebush. .

Actually the regular season games at Homebush averaged crowds 50%-100% greater then the games held at Allianz across the corresponding period.

The issue with ANZ is that the stadium is poor for viewing and additionally hosting matches there disengaged the traditional and established supporter base in the Eastern Suburbs.

 

[TOCC]

You can always import talent. You will never not be able to find professional rugby players. You will never go broke simply because of results.
.

It's well known the struggle WA have faced in attempting to import talent, there's no point pretending that this isn't a major factor in the Force recruiting good players, and it's also an issue which could largely be mitigated if the team was based in location which produces the majority of professional rugby union players in Australia.

 

[Strewthcobber]

Would prefer an option, such as the Gold Coast which has a very large catchment region (including northern NSW). and probably a willing big money sponsor, namely Bond University.

Gold Coast is where you go if you're a sporting organisation wanting to lose a lot of money

 

[Marcelo]

Rugby needs someone like Russell Crowe who invests his money in the 5th franchise. What about the goverment of WA? Bill Pulver is going to meet with them. They should invest in the Force, their sports market is very poor outside of the AFL

 

[TOCC]

WA Govt won't be a saviour, they are facing their own financial issues at the moment.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Actually the regular season games at Homebush averaged crowds 50%-100% greater then the games held at Allianz across the corresponding period.

The issue with ANZ is that the stadium is poor for viewing and additionally hosting matches there disengaged the traditional and established supporter base in the Eastern Suburbs.

According to the ANz stadium website they averaged 23,500 in 2014 and 20,500 in 2015 for regular season games.

Both years it was one game less than 20k and one game with a healthy crowd.

In 2014 it was the brumbies game and 2015 the crusaders game. So very likely boosted by opposition supporters travelling in 2014. I'm sure the grand final rematch in 2015 would have had its own appeal.

 

[Scrubber2050]

There is no doubt winning produces fans. Fans (maybe not NSW) come out of the woodwork when their team is winning. Remember the crowds at Suncorp in 2011.

I take your point TWAS about importing talent. I would think most fans would like to see their home grown talent winning. Of course the Force fill their roster. Most have gone there because they cannot get the dollars at their own franchise, or in fact their own franchise cannot find a place for them. or the player wants to play in the starting team (eg Morahan, Jonno Lance, Taps etc )

There is also no question in my mind that sponsorship money is greater and easier to attract with a winning team.

Suppose it is a Cart before the Horse argument

 

[Train Without a Station]

If anything the Reds are an exception, not the rule.

How have the Brumbies good performances resulted in crowd numbers? The Storm? Look at Sydney NRL teams in general.

There is plenty of doubt that winning automatically produces fans. That's an old argument that outdated sports administrators used for throwing plenty of money behind a team when an organisation couldn't afford it.

 

[Scrubber2050]

Gold Coast is where you go if you're a sporting organisation wanting to lose a lot of money

Mate = you are probably right. Lots of failed teams - Basketball, Soccer (with Clive), Seagulls and the bloody Titans are shaky as well.

It really needs to be a private enterprise business with PLENTY of $$$$ or Rand

 

[wamberal]

Rugby needs someone like Russell Crowe who invests his money in the 5th franchise. What about the goverment of WA? Bill Pulver is going to meet with them. They should invest in the Force, their sports market is very poor outside of the AFL

Any votes in it for them?


No.

 

[Marcelo]

According to the ANz stadium website they averaged 23,500 in 2014 and 20,500 in 2015 for regular season games.

Both years it was one game less than 20k and one game with a healthy crowd.

In 2014 it was the brumbies game and 2015 the crusaders game. So very likely boosted by opposition supporters travelling in 2014. I'm sure the grand final rematch in 2015 would have had its own appeal.

Are those the numbers of all the games, all the rugby games or all the Tahs games?

 

[TOCC]

According to the ANz stadium website they averaged 23,500 in 2014 and 20,500 in 2015 for regular season games.

Both years it was one game less than 20k and one game with a healthy crowd.

In 2014 it was the brumbies game and 2015 the crusaders game. So very likely boosted by opposition supporters travelling in 2014. I'm sure the grand
final rematch in 2015 would have had its own appeal.

Well if your opinion is that 20k is what is healthy then ANZ makes a compelling case, additionally ANZ Stadium has hosted the largest regular season crowd of the season every year since 2011.

2015
ANZ: 20k
SFS: 20k

2014
ANZ:35k including finals(23k regular season)
SFS: 21k including finals(18k regular season)

2013
ANZ: 23k
SFS: 14k

2012
ANZ: 32k
SFS: 19k

2011:
ANZ: 30k
SFS: 17k

 

[Train Without a Station]

And every year they play the biggest draw card games at ANZ stadium. Such as a Brumbies game that brings away fans.

I haven't looked at each year, but 2014 and 2015 are held up by one game. If they played 3 games there, there's a good chance that the 3rd game would draw the same as the Rebels and Reds games did on 2014 and 2015.

In the last 2 years the 4 regular season games pulled crowds something like this:

2014
Reds - 15k
Brumbies 39k

2015
Rebels - 17.5k
Crusaders - 29k.

Both the healthiest crowds had a logical explanation. For the brumbies traveling fans and crusaders, GF rematch.

 

[boyo]

Is there certainly more fans though?

Not everyone in Sydney/NSW who likes rugby can attend the SFS/ANZ/NRC/SS matches. Some prefer to watch them on TV (and enjoy their own choices of beer and food, not having to queue for the toilets, etc.), some are unable to go to the matches, etc.

 

[TOCC]

And every year they play the biggest draw card games at ANZ stadium. Such as a Brumbies game that brings away fans.

I haven't looked at each year, but 2014 and 2015 are held up by one game. If they played 3 games there, there's a good chance that the 3rd game would draw the same as the Rebels and Reds games did on 2014 and 2015.

In the last 2 years the 4 regular season games pulled crowds something like this:

2014
Reds - 15k
Brumbies 39k

2015
Rebels - 17.5k
Crusaders - 29k.

Both the healthiest crowds had a logical explanation. For the brumbies traveling fans and crusaders, GF rematch.

And?
You questioned whether there were more rugby fans in Sydney then whet the average crowd at the SFS indicated, and the evidence is that there is, and there is specific evidence which indicates that rugby outside of the eastern suburbs has strong support.

Waratahs don't have full market saturation and that's reflected in every single comparative statistic from playing numbers through to match day attendance.

It's a key indicator that 50k -75k will regularly turn up to watch the Wallabies play but only a percentage of that is then converted into match day attendance at the Tahs. Whilst the Reds will average crowds which are around 40-50% of the average Wallabies crowd at Suncorp, the Tahs will sit closer to 20% or 30%. Likewise in tv ratings, Sydney represents a market which regularly draws figures twice that of Brisbane for Test Matches, but when it comes to Super Rugby matches the difference is only marginal. Again a key indicator a large portion of the rugby union community remained disengaged from the Tahs but still rugby union fans.

Sydney has twice the rugby union players of Brisbane, a population more then twice as large, a GDP which is more then twice that of Brisbane's. In fact Sydney represents a larger city, market, player pool, broadcast audience and economy then Brisbane and Perth combined. Yet there are a total of two teams in Perth and Brisbane and only one in Sydney.

 

[Train Without a Station]

But if that's based on the Waratahs playing their biggest game of the regular season at ANZ, is this indicative of western Sydney support. Or is it indicative that the biggest game gets people to travel?

The wallabies get support for a 1 off big game but the more they play, the less they get.

How many of these players are in western Sydney? If you said 5000 of the 10,000 approx registered senior players were in the region is agree that would show there is some support there.

How much of this double player base is in the region we are talking about?

 

[TOCC]

You're quick to try and pick apart the Sydney option, but what exactly is it you are defending?

After 10 years of investment in WA from the Force and annual Wallaby test matches, the Force managed to only draw a tv audience of 38k in prime time (AWST) local derby against Australia's best team, how many were at the ground, did it even crack 10k?

You can argue against a second Sydney team, but you really need to consider what the opportunity cost of the alternative is. And right now it's a team which can't draw a tv audience during prime time in their own market, it's a team who can't attract a principal sponsor and it's a team which needs to pay overs to recruit players from the traditional rugby states.

Had the team been based in Sydney from the start, I don't for a second doubt that it would be drawing TV audiences of 70k each week, would have a principal sponsor and would have a quality team made up of locally produced players.

 

[Train Without a Station]

Your last paragraph is exactly what I'm arguing against.

It may draw TV audiences of 70k but would this have any impact on the TV deal?

Saying it would have a principal sponsor is controversial considering that the Waratahs have lost a number of them and coming into 2016 did not have one.

It may have locally produced players but this has not been a problem with the Force. Astute recruitment has seen them pick up exceptional prospects like JOC (James O'Connor) and Pocock as well as good options like Coleman, Cowan, Hodgson, Cottrell, etc.

It's only been recently after years of directionless performances that this has been an issue.

I put it to you that you put the same coaches in western Sydney and that team lives through many of the same options. Though they're in a much more fickle market, with significantly more competition per capita.

We can talk about things like local derbies having appeal. But all a Sydney derby would do is reduce the appeal of the brumbies and Reds derbies. These games already have strong emotional sentiment. There's no way something that has more of an emotional draw isn't going to reduce the emotional draw of these games.

 

[Train Without a Station]

The force absolutely has its issues, but many have been down to poor football department management which disengages fans and creates difficulties in attracting quality players.

To say a western Sydney team would be a financial success ignores the fact that the current Sydney team is not one and any new team would certainly encroach to some degree.