Bledisloe 1 - Wallabies vs All Blacks, ANZ Stadium, Sydney, 8:05pm

[tragic]

That presumes we have better cattle to replace them

The problem is they are both 7s and playing them both is hurting us.
It is unfortunate that two of our best forwards play the same position but we just can't keep shoehorning them into the team at the expense of other facets of our game.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Haven't seen the game. Unlikely to ever see it.

Disappointing to lose by that much at home. I could almost accept losing that much at Eden Park. Particularly these days.





Bingo. Cheika has to take responsibility for the loss, overall. Of that there can be no question. But the NATURE of the loss is down to execution.

The people calling for the national coach to turn water into wine are all wrong. It is never an expectation for any coach at professional level to do this. The talent must be right, otherwise they shouldn't be selected.

A week is a long time in sport. I would expect improvement. If not, then sacking the coach is to be flagged as an option.

But who gets the gig?

Good to see you on the thread Pfitzy even if you haven't seen the game. It is notable that a few others are missing in action.

I will have to disagree with you though that it isn't the coaches' jobs to work on individual skills. And note I have included all coaches in this comment, not just Cheika. When the basic skill levels are so deplorable it is incumbent on the coaching staff to put extra time into honing those skills. After all, it is the coaching staff who decide these are the players to represent the country.

It is starting to look very unfortunate that Cheika has had his contract extended to post 2019, but it is what it is. We may not be in a position to do much about that, but both Larkham and Grey must go if we want to see some improvement in the Wallabies. Neither has been able to produce a performance in their respective areas of responsibility to warrant their retention.

 

[Gnostic]

That presumes we have better cattle to replace them



Kuridrani I think will be saved by the amount of 12s gone. Who is next in line? Hodge? or does Foley lpay 12 with Cooper going to 10 ......... at Eden Park

I think Moore, Kurindrani and Simmons need to go regardless. The rest is window dressing unless the basic structures are fixed. The Larkham attack model is rubbish, as it was at the Brumbies and against England, and Grey's defensive patterns were exposed at the Tahs.

The two play into each other as well with the attack system so well illustrated by DBA in a blog piece on the front page after the third England debacle.

To continue on like this is madness considering it has led to some new records in the negative for the Wallabies.

 

[Oracle83]

Come on Fitzy, if the coaches aren't going to create improvement where are they going to improve. Oh that's right the 8 week NRC? FFS.

Compare to last night's opposition, players like Savaea couldn't pass, kick or even catch when they first came on the scene. He improved and achieved potential. How many of our players can say the same. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) for all his tests left Australia regarded as a good Wallaby but not a great, and still had fundamental flaws in his game. Folau is into his third season and still cannot kick effectively if there is anybody in cooee because of technique, Foley getting charged (AGAIN FFS) is technique.

I don't accept that it isn't up to coaches at any level.

There is nobody in line for the test job behind Chieka IMO, I don't think Larkham has the runs on the board to be assistant let alone a head coach and the Brumbies were horrible this year.

What about a Captain who can Captain and talks to inspire his fellow overpaid under achieving team mates. I am not even going to raise his line outs.

 

[galumay]

As expected the couch coaches think just changing the cattle will make a difference. It wont.

There simply are not the players in Australian Rugby to compete with the AB's. It begs the question, already asked by others, "how many of you actually watched all of the Super Rugby games?"

If you did you would know we simply dont have players with sufficient skills and development to compete at the same level.

I dont think there is much realisation of how dire the situation is, and it may be something Australian Rugby never recovers from. The lack of funding, the competition for talent from the other football codes, the damage done by administrators to the development of the game from schoolboy level up all make it very difficult to imagine an Australian team competing for the number 1 spot in the future.

Watching the Boks v Pumas game this morning, I think a realistic expectation for this season is for the Wobblies to aim to win the home game against the Pumas - even that will be a challenge.

 

[Pfitzy]

Come on Fitzy, if the coaches aren't going to create improvement where are they going to improve. Oh that's right the 8 week NRC? FFS.

Compare to last night's opposition, players like Savaea couldn't pass, kick or even catch when they first came on the scene. He improved and achieved potential. How many of our players can say the same. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) for all his tests left Australia regarded as a good Wallaby but not a great, and still had fundamental flaws in his game. Folau is into his third season and still cannot kick effectively if there is anybody in cooee because of technique, Foley getting charged (AGAIN FFS) is technique.

I don't accept that it isn't up to coaches at any level.

Perhaps I didn't explain it in enough detail.

Coaches at PROFESSIONAL level should already get their cattle at a certain level of skill. They need to create an environment where that skill is honed, but they're only adding a few percent at best.

The club players who go to Super Rugby should have the raw ability and base fitness to start with. Their skill base should be of a suitable level as well, or they're in the wrong sport.

Once they go to national level, the coach there isn't going to suddenly turn them into gods. They're not rubbish to start with, after all.

At Test level, the players should be in an environment where they improve marginally on an individual level, but as a team they come together to be greater than the sum of their parts, and improve on their mental strength.

Cheika failed on the last part. But is he supposed to run kicking clinics? Passing clinics? High ball clinics? Restart clinics?

He's meant to get that group of players into a team, pointing in the same direction. They're meant to be good enough to make the team in the first place.

The teamwork is the coach's fault. The execution is the player.

 

[Gnostic]

@Galumay - I can't be bothered going back and looking, were you saying this when Redshappy, Juan Cote, myself and others were posting these things over the last 6 or 7 years?

I do believe we have plenty of players with the talent and potential to play at the highest level. It does require an admission though that coaches actually do have to coach skills at all levels and players not improving must be dropped.

A realistic expectation shouldn't focus on results. Results are a furphy, look for improvement. Look after the improvement and the results will look after themselves. Chasing stats and focussing on Win:Loss is what killed the Waratahs fan base.

 

[Gnostic]

Perhaps I didn't explain it in enough detail.



Coaches at PROFESSIONAL level should already get their cattle at a certain level of skill. They need to create an environment where that skill is honed, but they're only adding a few percent at best.



The club players who go to Super Rugby should have the raw ability and base fitness to start with. Their skill base should be of a suitable level as well, or they're in the wrong sport.



Once they go to national level, the coach there isn't going to suddenly turn them into gods. They're not rubbish to start with, after all.



At Test level, the players should be in an environment where they improve marginally on an individual level, but as a team they come together to be greater than the sum of their parts, and improve on their mental strength.



Cheika failed on the last part. But is he supposed to run kicking clinics? Passing clinics? High ball clinics? Restart clinics?



He's meant to get that group of players into a team, pointing in the same direction. They're meant to be good enough to make the team in the first place.



The teamwork is the coach's fault. The execution is the player.

How did Nemani Nadolo become the polished player he is at professional level considering he had abysmal skills at everything when he started at Pro level.

Your argument is fine Pfitzy in an ideal world, but it simply isn't going to work in a Australian Rugby situation. If Chieka and Co don't teach basic skills nobody is going to because they are lacking at all levels. Lets face it Wallaby players are getting selected on potential, the coaches have to add that polish because the Super coaches (Larkham one of them) have no idea and haven't for years.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Nonu's development after coming into the ABs is a prime example imo that coaches at the national level still have a role in developing and honing players' skills.

 

[biggsy]

Had a lovely dream last night that Beauden Barrett was a Wallaby.

 

[cyclopath]

The problem is they are both 7s and playing them both is hurting us.
It is unfortunate that two of our best forwards play the same position but we just can't keep shoehorning them into the team at the expense of other facets of our game.

Absolutely. And people need to look beyond the rote descriptions of positions and look at what the All Black back row did. They didn't really set up to steal ball, they all set up to smash our ball. They all hit hard in defence, drive players back, hit rucks and disrupt our ball so we got little clean ball, win some counter-rucks too. Oh, plenty of them can steal it if they want but it does not seem to be the priority - wreck the opposition ball is. If I could stomach it, I'd watch the game again just to focus on what the AB pack, and their back row in particular did. It was brutally effective. And it's not complex.
Now we have to have at least 2 in the back row with some hitting power / weight, preferably 3. Playing a back row as we have is OK if we get fast ball, as their other skills come into play. We didn't. Not to mention the lack of runners getting over the gain line.

So for me, Hooper to the bench - as good a player as he is, and he is, we can't make it work against big, abrasive back rows like NZ, SA or England in particular.
I have no real answer to who to play at 6 and 8 though. Lopeti Timani with an Ardie Savea rampaging murder shopfront-looting mentality would work; does he have it?

Now, the next depressing thing to look at is how good the offloading game by most AB forwards is. But enough misery for one post.

 

[Merrow]

I think Moore, Kurindrani and Simmons need to go regardless.

Here's a problem for you though. If you get rid of Kurindrani, which of your Messiahs can defend the way he does. He topped the tackle count last night....yes, even more than Hooper. Please understand that I'm in no way defending his attack, or lack thereof, however none of the others hold a candle to his defensive efforts.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Not an admission by coaching and selection staff though. Hooper just didn't suddenly jump. They must have actually trained for it and thought they would get a result. Symptom of a coach that thinks being smart is going away from the basics and doing sneaky things to gain an advantage. Just embarrassing really embarrassing.

I could understand it if they did it later in the match esp if the designated jumpers weren't getting the job done, but doing it first up reeks of "let's do something unexpected, for the sake of doing something unexpected". Just a really, really low % play IMO.

Until that last try, ABs looked like setting a new biggest winning margin over Wobs. Will have to settle for biggest winning margin in Sydney.

It all got a little messy after Crotty went off, didn't it? Fekitoa's just not a 12 at this stage of his career: not saying it was his fault but the total revamp forced by Crotty's injury saved the Wobs from a record pantsing.

Looks like Naholo's gone again, torn hammy being reported, no one seems to know what's wrong with Crotty yet. Taylor won't play next week so I'm guessing they draft in Coltman & maybe Dixon?

 

[Heavyd]

20/8/16. The day rugby sadly died in Australia.
I will never again be venturing out to ANZ Stadium to watch that drivel. Sack the lot of them starting with Moore and Foley.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Try reading my posts from after the team was selected "champ"
It went exactly as I predicted it would.

Comment was meant to be more humorous than it came out. Sorry for that.

 

[cyclopath]

Here's a problem for you though. If you get rid of Kurindrani, which of your Messiahs can defend the way he does. He topped the tackle count last night..yes, even more than Hooper. Please understand that I'm in no way defending his attack, or lack thereof, however none of the others hold a candle to his defensive efforts.

It's a good point and one reason not to put Folau there. 13 is hard defensively. Kerevi is not as good a defender either. AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) might be the only option that ticks that box. There will be some trade-off, whatever options anyone looked at.

 

[tragic]

Here's a problem for you though. If you get rid of Kurindrani, which of your Messiahs can defend the way he does. He topped the tackle count last night..yes, even more than Hooper. Please understand that I'm in no way defending his attack, or lack thereof, however none of the others hold a candle to his defensive efforts.

But you can't beat the ABs, or stay off the he bottom of TRC ladder with one try and two line breaks per game.
I had no issue with his selection but after last night I think it's time for a shakeup.
I was also against folau at 13 but he needs more ball.
I'd go for Kerevi/ Folau at 12/13 for next week.
But I suspect Cheiks will go for hodge/ Kerevi.
(Presuming Gits and To'omua are unavailable)

 

[wamberal]

Your argument is fine Pfitzy in an ideal world, but it simply isn't going to work in a Australian Rugby situation. If Chieka and Co don't teach basic skills nobody is going to because they are lacking at all levels. Lets face it Wallaby players are getting selected on potential, the coaches have to add that polish because the Super coaches (Larkham one of them) have no idea and haven't for years.

I can only assume that Larkham just works on fancy moves for the backlines?


The ABs don't seem to need any fancy moves.

 

[Oracle83]

If you did you would know we simply dont have players with sufficient skills and development to compete at the same level.

I dont think there is much realisation of how dire the situation is, and it may be something Australian Rugby never recovers from. The lack of funding, the competition for talent from the other football codes, the damage done by administrators to the development of the game from schoolboy level up all make it very difficult to imagine an Australian team competing for the number 1 spot in the future.

Watching the Boks v Pumas game this morning, I think a realistic expectation for this season is for the Wobblies to aim to win the home game against the Pumas - even that will be a challenge.[/quote]


thats it mate accept the lack of tackling and commitment what drivel you have obviously accepted losing too easily all your life mate - it's not the size of the dog in the fight!!!

Get rid of the old, useless and uncommitted - play the youth in their specialist positions and build for the future not let the past drag us further behind - that team is paid over $8m - have a look at how the Esposito family performed on their budget - training, commitment and ticker.

You don't think the poms have other sports to compete with - that side would have lost to Japan, Tinga or Samoa last night - they got none of the basics right.

End of rant!!!

 

[Saxter]

Here's a problem for you though. If you get rid of Kurindrani, which of your Messiahs can defend the way he does. He topped the tackle count last night..yes, even more than Hooper. Please understand that I'm in no way defending his attack, or lack thereof, however none of the others hold a candle to his defensive efforts.

We lost by 40 points. So no player can be retained because of defence IMO.