Where to for Super Rugby?

[Rebels3]

Look this is just an absolute nonsense
Please provide your proof that the Rebels have received 33m more from than the ARU than the other Australian Soop teams over the period of their existence . The figure is less than half that .
Is it still a lot of dough YES
Have the organisation wasted a lot of money , especially in their first two years
YES
Was it all their fault RESOUNDING NO
Were their estimates for revenue and costs in the original business model extremely flawed RESOUNDING YES
In the current model can a Super Rugby team in Melbourne at least break even financially RESOUNDING NO
In the current model can a Super Rugby team anywhere in Australia break even financially PROBABLY NOT

The whole thing is rooted both on and off the field and I feel very sorry for the Force as an organisation if they are for the chop as I have enormous respect for both the people and the club as a whole involved
It just doesn't assist the discussion for you to sprout bull shit numbers

Unfortunately the pendulum has swing again back to the Force, a situation not one Rebels fans likes to see. However with their backs against the wall tactics (obviously read in some Ricky Stuart marketing/coaching manual) it is now open season for some of their fans throw some shit around again. Pushing the focus back onto a party (the Rebels) that by in large have been quite dignified during this shit fight. We get it, that the whole situation sucks, we were you two weeks ago and two weeks before that it was you again. We all know the Rebels have been by in large a failure in many facets, just like the Force have but you don't see us pushing and kicking others to get off the Titanic.

Most have been very good, but a select few have been abject fools at times.

 

[Rebels3]

The implication is clearly there based on the stats you provided. So I provided my own stats. Simple.

You read into to much

 

[I like to watch]

........
You Eastern staters always express strong opinions about propping up franchises with players, how about one of you actually get outraged that you will be pouring money into a failed venture that has already cost you $33 million and will need another $15 million in emergency/bailout funding by 2020?

To be outraged about only one issue would do them a great disservice,
They have earned our ridicule on many occasions.

 

[Forceright]

The point NTT I think is making is that Clyne has repeatedly spouted a $28mill figure and inferred that it is attibutable to 'bailing' the Force, which is a complete lie, and yet not one journo (who are all able to question at media interviews) or Kick & Chase, has queried his claim as BS. As for other figures, they show clearly the monies and finances spent by viewing the Financial Statements. It's not about 'pushing and kicking others to get off the Titanic' - it's about Clyne telling the truth instead of portraying misinformation and getting away with it!

 

[Rebels3]

The point NTT I think is making is that Clyne has repeatedly spouted a $28mill figure and inferred that it is attibutable to 'bailing' the Force, which is a complete lie, and yet not one journo (who are all able to question at media interviews) or Kick & Chase, has queried his claim as BS. As for other figures, they show clearly the monies and finances spent by viewing the Financial Statements. It's not about 'pushing and kicking others to get off the Titanic' - it's about Clyne telling the truth instead of portraying misinformation and getting away with it!

See i don't think anyone actually thinks the Force are the sole reason for the $28mil. I actually can't remember it ever been implied this way. A lot has been caught up and misrepresented from all parties (media, fans, ARU) through a siege mentality where some have picked up or grabbed onto anything and everything and used it as a vocal weapon, if its valid or not (fans). The media are feeding of this frenzy and the ARU is absolutely shitting itself with attacks coming from everywhere and anywhere, some relevant and serious, some implied and some just bullshit. Everyone has lost sight of which is what and what is which.

 

[FiveStarStu]

The point NTT I think is making is that Clyne has repeatedly spouted a $28mill figure and inferred that it is attibutable to 'bailing' the Force, which is a complete lie

I haven't seen one article or comment to this effect that wasn't from a Force fan.

I assumed it is a wider result of financial ineptitude on the part of the ARU.

 

[Dave Beat]

Sorry DB, but this sort of horse-shit will not fertilise any rugby in Aus. Maybe feralise if that's what you mean.

Please explain the brumbies growth over the last 5 years.
The potential growth of rugby over the next 5 years.

I see ACT rugby as playing a huge part in Australian Rugby as it has done over the many decades prior to Soup Rugby. I simply don't see it being able to sustain the sort of growth that would benefit Australian Rugby as WA & VIC would be able to create.

As I said, I want 5 teams. If forced to have 4 I simply explained that i think we could achieve better growth and success through VIC & WA - i have no issues other people seeing it differently.

I'll throw a different angle, I don't think NSWRU or QRU have done anything to substantiate their reason to stay - history and the rugby punters are why the reasons they haven't been discussed and the Brumbies are no different.

And I'll add - this is a wake up call that all state unions need to lift their game.

Brumby Runner - I've enjoyed and supported the Brumbies more times than I've supported the Tahs because of the style of rugby played.

 

[oztimmay]

So, arbitration could be an option. Without seeing the agreement, who know if both parties are contractually bound to take this to arbitration, and out of the public eye.

Western Force is being pushed into secret negotiations by the Australian Rugby Union as it tries to cut a Super Rugby franchise.

The ARU wants to take its legal battle with the Force behind closed doors in an arbitration hearing in Sydney.
The ARU refused to explain why it wants to take the fight out of the public arena after a WA Supreme Court directions hearing was postponed yesterday.
An ARU spokesman also refused to say why it has taken seven weeks from the announcement that an Australian team would be cut to reach a decision on arbitration.
The ARU claim there is a clause in the alliance agreement between the Force and the governing body that commits them to arbitration.

https://thewest.com.au/sport/rugby-...one-australian-super-rugby-side-ng-b88491109z

 

[Rebels3]

Arbitration is prob the ARUs only hope for a quick resolution.

Personally I hope the Force tell them to get stuffed.

 

[Gnostic]

NRC is self-funded (from an ARU standpoint). Foxsport pay for the whole thing. Could it be better yes but is it better than having nothing yes.

You do understand that money AND opportunity AND goodwill is still being invested in this venture instead of a real developmental pathway?

[quote TOCC, post: #6470]Interestingly NRC overall broadcast figures grew 65% last season, or 23% more per-game, coming from a low base but still an improving KPI in a year when other areas of OZ Rugby seem to be imploding [/quote]

How many hundreds attended the Final last year? How many attended their local clubs games? Have a look at how many are attending the local games this year not only in Sydney but in Brisbane I have been told.

The fact is inescapable, by the time the NRC reaches a maturity that allows it to be a real competition (and its debatable if it ever could under the current structure) long enough to actually be a development pathway it will be far too late in terms of Australian Rugby survival, and that is the point about the waste of money, time and goodwill.

Any strategies being promoted simply have to bear fruit in the short term and have the capacity enable long term growth. That was my position before the ARU finally started to implode, as I and others have predicted it would due to financial issues, and it remains my position now, made more pressing perhaps because we are actually standing on the precipice now instead of seeing it the distance.

 

[BLR]

Arbitration is prob the ARUs only hope for a quick resolution.

Personally I hope the Force tell them to get stuffed.

It would be a hell of a betrayal if they didn't. Cox selling the license would have to be far more likely.

RugbyWA, despite what Clyne says, have not heard much from the ARU since the writ was served so I am sure they have been preparing for an almighty battle. At the end of the day they are fans as well & as I am sure you're all aware, us WA fans react with talks of cutting our team with righteous fury. I would suspect the ARU haven't learnt a thing and will rock up with a pay off cheque and will be told to bugger off.

 

[stoff]

Look this is just an absolute nonsense
Please provide your proof that the Rebels have received 33m more from than the ARU than the other Australian Soop teams over the period of their existence . The figure is less than half that .
Is it still a lot of dough YES
Have the organisation wasted a lot of money , especially in their first two years
YES
Was it all their fault RESOUNDING NO
Were their estimates for revenue and costs in the original business model extremely flawed RESOUNDING YES
In the current model can a Super Rugby team in Melbourne at least break even financially RESOUNDING NO
In the current model can a Super Rugby team anywhere in Australia break even financially PROBABLY NOT

The whole thing is rooted both on and off the field and I feel very sorry for the Force as an organisation if they are for the chop as I have enormous respect for both the people and the club as a whole involved
It just doesn't assist the discussion for you to sprout bull shit numbers

Victoria has also pumped more than it's fair share into The ARU's coffers since rugby went pro. Based on the real number being somewhere around half of the $33m, I would be surprised if the ARU isn't pretty close to break even in Victoria. I think they would also be that way in Canberra and Perth, if not in profit. It isn't the lesser states and territories sending the place broke. It is just we are now taking our fair share, meaning we aren't propping the joint up like we used to, while the ARU are still clueless how to turn a dollar in their mature markets.


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[BLR]

Victoria has also pumped more than it's fair share into The ARU's coffers since rugby went pro. Based on the real number being somewhere around half of the $33m, I would be surprised if the ARU isn't pretty close to break even in Victoria. I think they would also be that way in Canberra and Perth, if not in profit. It isn't the lesser states and territories sending the place broke. It is just we are now taking our fair share, meaning we aren't propping the joint up like we used to, while the ARU are still clueless how to turn a dollar in their mature markets.


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Have the Victorian element of Wallabies games added that much value above and beyond the other states?

I have said this before but people go to the Bledisloe because it is a Bledisloe, they don't give a toss if it is in Melbourne. And from my own personal experience there is a whole load of non-Victorians at those games.

So where is the value that justifies all that extra money, if the Rebels were getting full houses every game fair enough, the correlation between internationals & Rebels would exist. But they are clearly two different entities and one of them has been handed alot of money at the expense with potentially another team.

 

[Quick Hands]

So, arbitration could be an option. Without seeing the agreement, who know if both parties are contractually bound to take this to arbitration, and out of the public eye.




https://thewest.com.au/sport/rugby-...one-australian-super-rugby-side-ng-b88491109z

I'd be getting the ARU into open court if I was in any way confident in my case.

 

[Quick Hands]

The outrageous part of the journalistic coverage of all of this is not one journalist has ran an in depth investigation into where the ARUs money has been spent in terms of the $28 million. The annual reports are all available from ASIC. These reports show that Melbourne has received $20 million in bailouts and $13 million in loan forgiveness. Thats $33 million in 7 years of wasted money that grassroots and club rugby has been deprived of. $4.75 million a year just gone from our game chasing some fantastical market which, in 7 years, has not reciprocated. It is outrageous to think that our wisest administrators cannot see what a disaster it has been chasing shadows in Melbourne. Add in a couple million for damage to brand and anoth $4.75 million in bailouts and the ARU has thrown away another $6.75 million this year alone. Melbourne has a 20 year contract, at this rate this franchise is on track to lose $95 million out of rugby by the end of the 20 year lease.
How much does grassroots really need the money if their tradeoff is to kill their 3rd highest participated competition?
How much does grassroots really need the money if this is all one big bluff by the ARU to protect the cushy conditions afforded to the ARU hierarchy?
How much does grassroots really need the money when all savings from axing a growing market will be poured into the pocket of a businessman only looking for a profit?

It is outrageous that no one, and i mean absolutely no one, has expressed disgust through their journalistic privilege that Australian Rugby will continue to be expected to fund these perennial losses made by a franchise that is supposed to be privately owned and privately funded.
You Eastern staters always express strong opinions about propping up franchises with players, how about one of you actually get outraged that you will be pouring money into a failed venture that has already cost you $33 million and will need another $15 million in emergency/bailout funding by 2020?

The ARU have long benefited from a compliant and sychophantic rugby media. The've been subjected to far more scrutiny on these threads than anywhere else.

 

[James Pettifer]

It would be a hell of a betrayal if they didn't. Cox selling the license would have to be far more likely.

RugbyWA, despite what Clyne says, have not heard much from the ARU since the writ was served so I am sure they have been preparing for an almighty battle. At the end of the day they are fans as well & as I am sure you're all aware, us WA fans react with talks of cutting our team with righteous fury. I would suspect the ARU haven't learnt a thing and will rock up with a pay off cheque and will be told to bugger off.

I don't understand how it can work in arbitration. The ARU want to cut the Force (probably) and RugbyWA don't want the Force to be cut.

I can't think of anything that the ARU can provide RugbyWA that would make up for the Force being cut (maybe a massive increase in the number/quality of international games).

So at least the negotiation will be pretty quick.

 

[BLR]

I can't think of anything that the ARU can provide RugbyWA that would make up for the Force being cut (maybe a massive increase in the number/quality of international games).

Or a big ol brown paper bag with 'definetely not a bribe' written on it.

 

[dru]

I will start by saying - I want all 5 teams to stay.

But lets say one HAST TO GO.

Now I'll say despite being the most successful Australian Team in soup, if a team has to be removed I'd remove the Brumbies.

• They are a pimple on the arse of Australia.
• Their success all very much deserved and yeah i loved watching, was partly / primarily due to the fact that NSW had / has political issues that still go on until this day.

If the Brumbies players lifted the quality of Force & Rebels i think that would fertalise the long term growth of the game.

What is the future growth of the game in ACT like? - honest question.

Yes I have been a fan of the Brumbies over the years - this is in know way to start an arguement as i want all 5 teams. But lets cut everything back and lets look at fertalising and growing the game and what would be the best for Australian Rugby in 5 years, and how it could / would look.

Tough call. Very tough. Really tough.

(And IMO accurate.)

Better with five.

 

[Rugbynutter39]

I still feel rather depressed about what could happen this year with cutting a team still on the books....as Force look likely to be cut if any oz Super Rugby team is to be cut and if ignore short term finance considerations (read: ARU broke and supporting Super Rugby pro competition that is completely broken as a model and fan support does not help) means sacrificial lambs have to found for short term finances despite obvious (imo) long term benefits from what great things WA Rugby doing with homegrown talent coming through senior pro ranks etc etc.

And now I am told Eastwood taken over Rams and may not see them play at Concord which is local for me....gees might be down to watching the pirates next year at this rate. But yeah I really like NRC and points system etc so bit more appeal for me so hope Pappy wants to keep Concord thing going for the RAMS. Ok sorry not Super Rugby related....but then again maybe it is as we want alternatives and NRC has set us up to be more than it is in longer form with better club engagement so may well yet provide the compliment to Super Rugby.

 

[p.Tah]

Let's start a rumour the ARU have decided to launch a 10 team national competition to replace Super Rugby. We don't have enough players to support it so we're going to raid the NRL after uncovering several wealthy benefactors.
Meanwhile the Rugby League players association hears of this and leaverages it in their collective bargaining agreement. The NRL gets spooked and meets the players' demand. The game goes bankrupt in 5 years time. Out of desperation the NRL and ARU join forces to pool resources, the great schism is repaired. Clubs irrespective of code work to bring more juniors into the two sports where they all play both versions at various parts of the season, whilst the 7s, 13s and 15s at the professional level flourish and all the fans ride to the games on unicorns.