Australia v Italy, Suncorp Stadium, 24th June 2017 @ 3:00pm

[Quick Hands]

Interesting

I'm not really surprised by his comment, but don't they all go back to their super clubs now?

 

[TSR]

There's no question Cooper reads the game better than Foley, but QC (Quade Cooper)'s form this year has been horrifically bad. It's unbelievable that he's in the squad, even mores that he's on the field.

Foley's a very capable, test level 10 with a consistently poor kicking game and ordinary defence which make him substandard. He's way better than any other option in Australia at the moment though.

I agree that Foley is better than the alternatives. But, for a player who has a relatively uncomplicated game there is still a considerable difference between his best and worst, and we saw too much of his worst in the last two games.

 

[KOB1987]

I was on the cans last night so I deliberately refrained from posting on this thread.

As a wallabies supporter it wasn't good enough. As a neutral it was an entertaining game.

Lots of people talking about lots of magic bullets. How the fuck do any of us know what would have made things better? Higgers would have played the house down apparently. TK would have suddenly found form. Playing Hodge out of position at 13 would have yielded an 80 point win. Dempsey wasn't deserved of a cap. 21 debut caps over the past 12 months - a year ago Cheika was accused of not moving on from the old guard. Now he's making dud selections of players not worthy.

The best bit is that a 30-15 flogging of the Lions (NB: that's the pick of the top 4 countries from the NH) by NZ was a scintillating affair, a match for the ages. The fuck?

 

[TSR]

I'm not looking for magic bullets - I know there are none.

I'm more worried about death by 100 cuts.

 

[Dan54]

Well I have to say I am most disappointed that there are no photos with lines and arrows drawn on them to show the angle of props as we often see off Joe Marler etc, oh that's right it was the Wallaby props being turned inside out wasn't it?
Ok fellas pulling your chain but I think anyone who really watched those scrumcould see how a real good THP and hooker can get on the inside shoulder of a loosehead. I did think Toby Smith was very lucky not to give away a penalty try though because he kept going down on his elbow, trying to straighten up.

 

[TSR]

Yeah, he was. But I did think the Italians were also lucky that the ref was making all of his calls from the far side of the scrum. At least one of those penalties should have gone the other way IMO.

But if your central point is that we lost the scrum battle - I agree.

 

[KOB1987]

T smith got schooled, there's no need for arrows etc

 

[fatprop]

I'm not really surprised by his comment, but don't they all go back to their super clubs now?

yep, all back but I would guess some extras have been created for them

It does amaze me that all the Super clubs aren't more focused on this anyway, much easier to make that tackle or throw a decent pass when you are not blowing

 

[Dan54]

Yeah, he was. But I did think the Italians were also lucky that the ref was making all of his calls from the far side of the scrum. At least one of those penalties should have gone the other way IMO.

But if your central point is that we lost the scrum battle - I agree.

Actually TSR probably more my point was that sometimes props get turned by a superior prop, and because we see an angle on TV, doesn't always mean he is trying to cheat! I didn't think either Sio or Smith were boring in on purpose, and very few props do!!

 

[jimmydubs]

Is the fitness issue real?
Tahs play better in second half!
All 5 super teams with different coaching tabs have this same issue, despite MC checking up on them?
Reeks a bit of workman blaming the tools. Wobblies have wobbled at all stages of the 80.

Or maybe theyve spent too much Wallaby training time on this issue and not enough on catching, passing, plan A and plan B etc??

 

[TSR]

Actually TSR probably more my point was that sometimes props get turned by a superior prop, and because we see an angle on TV, doesn't always mean he is trying to cheat! I didn't think either Sio or Smith were boring in on purpose, and very few props do!!

Mate - front towers are always trying to cheat (the good ones and us not so good ones.) The true art is cheating, while making the other guy look like he is.

 

[TOCC]

I still maintain the wallabies biggest issue is lack of direction during attack phase. Foley as playmaker is seriously lacking at test level if we want to be challenging world top 3 ranking. Closely followed by an inexperienced and still unbalanced forward pack not performing consistently.

Here's my view (again) of notable incidents involving the wallabies "playmaker" Bernard Foley.

The following points are played against a rugby minnow, world rank 15th Italy....

1st min Foley Knocks on.
1st min Foley and Folou give away offside penalty.
3rd min Foley throws non pressured pass way too high ending in a knock on.
4th min Poor unpressured exit kick.
6th min Foley falls for a dummy pass leading too Italy potential try(disallowed).
6th min Another poor touch finder foley kick.
15th min Great touch finder off penalty
16th min Good Foley inside short ball for line break assist.
18th min Foley converts from sideline
28th min Foley knocks on again.
34th min Foley doesn't trust hunt beside him and makes the wrong judgment call tackling the wrong guy, allowing a clear linebreak for a try between himself and Genia.

Half time..so far zero playmaking involvement in tries so far for foley. Hunt doing a better playmaker job!
42nd min Foley 10metres out steps and Beats 1 and nearly scores.
44th min foley involved in freakish flick pass leading to Aus try.
56th min supports Genias linebreak well, but pass way over his head
60th min Foley knocks on cold 5m out in front of posts...AGAIN
76th min foley slips thru 3 players for a 7m try
79th min.foley finally directly involved in setting up a team try...beats and sucked in 3players to allow a 50 sprint race try.

I'll keep it simple...I've said it before..if that was Quade Coopers rap sheet...he'd never play again...yet still despite showing a solid at super rugby level at best form...he's continually chosen as the Wallabies playmaker. Truely boggles my mind. A simple addition of a real playmaker like Hunt at centre has transformed our backline 3fold. Our wingers are scoring and Folou is FAAAR more involved once again. Yet Foley is rarely involved in our tries.
Last week vs Scotland..Foleys only try involvement was a cross kick to a FREAKish Folou catch n score. Say no more.

Yet when I said earlier in this thread that Foley had a 'dissapointing' game someone disputed it.I don't think Quades the solution, I don't know who is, but Foleys form is concerning heading into the TRC.

 

[TSR]

Is the fitness issue real?
Tahs play better in second half!
All 5 super teams with different coaching tabs have this same issue, despite MC checking up on them?
Reeks a bit of workman blaming the tools. Wobblies have wobbled at all stages of the 80.

Or maybe theyve spent too much Wallaby training time on this issue and not enough on catching, passing, plan A and plan B etc??

I definitely think fitness is an issue and has been for a number of seasons. Dare I say it, since the last World Cup. We seem to be well below par across the board.

Doesn't mean those other areas of our game don't need attention, but we definitely fall down in being able to sustain high quality rugby at pace and intensity IMO.

Edit: and I don't see why it should be one or the other for full time professional athletes. Both skills and S&C need improvement and should be able to be addressed over the course of a training cycle.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Can't be considered a tackle surely? Although, whilst he fell off them he also shot out of the defensive line to hit the carrier and impede them, if not entirely tackling them. I wouldn't say many if any of his 'missed' tackles had an overall negative effect.

Was just trying to get some clarity. Looks like they are counted as missed tackles, and I agree, none of them had much material affect on the game. But of course the potential was there for those situations to lead to a line break if the opposition was a bit stronger.

 

[fatprop]

Is the fitness issue real?
Tahs play better in second half!
All 5 super teams with different coaching tabs have this same issue, despite MC checking up on them?
Reeks a bit of workman blaming the tools. Wobblies have wobbled at all stages of the 80.

Or maybe theyve spent too much Wallaby training time on this issue and not enough on catching, passing, plan A and plan B etc??

I disagree, the Tahs may finish better but they were still way behind the Kiwi sides, every Aus side looks well behind the Kiwi sides and have for quite a while in terms of fitness. Second efforts and reaction times off turnovers seems to me to be a good measure. How quickly the team realigns their defense and if the side works hard off the ball to leverage their turnovers and we are so far behind.

And skills? And plans A & B? meh, if you don't have that fitness base your skills deteriorate and whatever plans you have are mute. How many bad passes do you see under pressure and fatigue? Now we can't reduce the pressure, but we can reduce the fatigue.

 

[Brumby Runner]

Well I have to say I am most disappointed that there are no photos with lines and arrows drawn on them to show the angle of props as we often see off Joe Marler etc, oh that's right it was the Wallaby props being turned inside out wasn't it?
Ok fellas pulling your chain but I think anyone who really watched those scrumcould see how a real good THP and hooker can get on the inside shoulder of a loosehead. I did think Toby Smith was very lucky not to give away a penalty try though because he kept going down on his elbow, trying to straighten up.

I am a bit of a fan of Toby Smith, but yesterday he could have been (and should have been) penalised in each and every scrum he packed. The Italy scrum in total was about 60kg lighter than ours, but you'd never know it on the basis of their performance.

I am interested, however, in just how a hooker has a direct impact on the LHP. He seems to be three heads away from the opposition LH and I would have thought too far away to have a direct impact. Can you enlighten me?

 

[fatprop]

I definitely think fitness is an issue and has been for a number of seasons. Dare I say it, since the last World Cup. We seem to be well below par across the board.

Doesn't mean those other areas of our game don't need attention, but we definitely fall down in being able to sustain high quality rugby at pace and intensity IMO.

Edit: and I don't see why it should be one or the other for full time professional athletes. Both skills and S&C need improvement and should be able to be addressed over the course of a training cycle.

In the reporting of the Quigley conversation with Cheika, Cheika said that was the last time they were fit

 

[Brumby Runner]

Is the fitness issue real?
Tahs play better in second half!
All 5 super teams with different coaching tabs have this same issue, despite MC checking up on them?
Reeks a bit of workman blaming the tools. Wobblies have wobbled at all stages of the 80.

Or maybe theyve spent too much Wallaby training time on this issue and not enough on catching, passing, plan A and plan B etc??

Yeah, looks like the latest excuse to me, though I do recall it was used last year also to excuse the poor performances against the English. Maybe some of the replacements need to be used a bit earlier? But of course, that would mean the coach stepping up and admitting at least to himself that just maybe he is somewhat to blame.

 

[formerflanker]

Fitness can be measured in many ways, and on the rugby field it translates as sustained high intensity work under pressure of physical contact.
I want to know what Moore (SMH today) and Cheika mean by "not fit enough".
Aerobic fitness levels? Being able to run at full pace at the end of a game? Being able to throw a sensible pass in the 60th minute? Props lifting the jumper with correct timing in the 70th minute? There must be eleventy million more examples of rugby fitness.
So to trot out the unfit theory is far too simplistic and for our team leaders to go back to it smacks of an excuse for poor play.

 

[Dan54]

I am a bit of a fan of Toby Smith, but yesterday he could have been (and should have been) penalised in each and every scrum he packed. The Italy scrum in total was about 60kg lighter than ours, but you'd never know it on the basis of their performance.

I am interested, however, in just how a hooker has a direct impact on the LHP. He seems to be three heads away from the opposition LH and I would have thought too far away to have a direct impact. Can you enlighten me?

Only up to a small point BR, although it the THP that does most of damage, a good hooker will add a bit by getting in and forcing the hooker across too!