Wallabies 2020

[Adam84]

I don’t think playing Koroibete and Daugunu doesn’t mean they have to play to play “run it back at all cost Cheika-Ball”

 

[Hawko]

I wouldn't pair Koroibete and Daugunu on the wings, unless we're going to play run it back at all cost Cheika-ball, and we definitely should not...

If Rennie plays JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 and DHP at 15 then defensive kicks are likely to be fielded by both of them and Koro/Daugunu will be up in the line. That's the way the Reds played it all year. So whether Daugunu is or isn't a liability under the high ball defensively is likely to be a moot point as JOC (James O'Connor) and DHP may well take 99% of them. Where in the laws does it say a winger has to field the deep defensive kicks? Some teams play that way but some teams don't.

If its JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 and To'omua at 12, then on turnover if JOC (James O'Connor) is out of position To'omua goes to 10 for one or two phases.

There are more ways of killing a cat than skinning it alive my mother used to say.

 

[rugboy]

Daugunu is very good under the high ball, I don't know where this crap about him being suspect under the high ball is coming from. He's a little bit short at 175 (5"9') but otherwise he's fine. But plenty of wingers aren't tall. Mind you, plenty of wingers aren't capable of having 3 pilfers in game either!

Did you watch the final?

 

[rugboy]

If Rennie plays JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 and DHP at 15 then defensive kicks are likely to be fielded by both of them and Koro/Daugunu will be up in the line. That's the way the Reds played it all year. So whether Daugunu is or isn't a liability under the high ball defensively is likely to be a moot point as JOC (James O'Connor) and DHP may well take 99% of them. Where in the laws does it say a winger has to field the deep defensive kicks? Some teams play that way but some teams don't.

If its JOC (James O'Connor) at 10 and To'omua at 12, then on turnover if JOC (James O'Connor) is out of position To'omua goes to 10 for one or two phases.

There are more ways of killing a cat than skinning it alive my mother used to say.

Ideally, rather than moving players to cover the deficiencies of others, which in turn creates other issues, such as off the turnovers, you play players with the skillsets that don't require us to plug holes. Particularly when those other players are highly skilled an in form also. Ramm or Wright as genuine back 3 options means JOC (James O'Connor) doesn't need to drop and doesn't therefore compromise the WB ability to attack off turnovers.

There are definitely more ways to kill a cat, the others are just messier and more complicated.

 

[Silverado]

Daugunu is very good under the high ball, I don't know where this crap about him being suspect under the high ball is coming from. He's a little bit short at 175 (5"9') but otherwise he's fine. But plenty of wingers aren't tall. Mind you, plenty of wingers aren't capable of having 3 pilfers in game either!

People aren't saying it's because he's short, it's because he had trouble catching in the Super Rugby final

 

[TSR]

Ideally, rather than moving players to cover the deficiencies of others, which in turn creates other issues, such as off the turnovers, you play players with the skillsets that don't require us to plug holes. Particularly when those other players are highly skilled an in form also. Ramm or Wright as genuine back 3 options means JOC (James O'Connor) doesn't need to drop and doesn't therefore compromise the WB ability to attack off turnovers.

There are definitely more ways to kill a cat, the others are just messier and more complicated.

It’s not about moving players unnecessarily though, nor about hiding deficiencies, nor plugging holes. Plenty of modern teams play their 10 at the back. The 10 & 15 play at the back in defence and the wingers play up on the edge. It puts your best kickers in the back field. Lolesio played there for the Brumbies & Harrison for the Tahs. Guys like Barrett (even when playing 10) and Mo’unga play from the back too.

It’s been pretty standard for at least 10 years.

Cheika tried to take it to another level with players moving all over the place and that failed because the wingers were running from one side to the other and became easy pickings for the attack as they understandably fatigued. The guys inside fell down because they had to cover extra space and there was a lack of clarity around positioning. Cheika & Grey overcomplicated it and it fell apart.

But the standard use of the 10 at the back and the wingers on the edge is not at all complex and is deployed successfully across provincial & international rugby. Regardless of who the wingers & fly half are I would be far more surprised if our 10 didn’t play at the back in defence.

Edit: what I would love to know is why Daugunu never kicked for the Reds. It’s been commonly stated on here he can kick, and is in fact a good kicker but he never/virtually never kicked on his returns for the Reds. Does this mean he struggled to execute or did they just give him licence to run everything. Regardless of the defence structure there will always be times wingers are covering at the back. It would be handy if Daugunu had a kicking game to complement his running game. I’d imagine Rennie will want him to have some capability in that area. I’d love to know if his failure to kick for the Reds was due to thought or design.

 

[Up the Guts]

Dropping the ten back and moving the blind winger into the line is a standard operation that happens from schoolboy rugby. It’s the cross-field kicks that would be the worry but they’re generally 50/50 anyway (unless you have a freak like Folau) and the ABs are unlikely to be playing any aerial specialists.

 

[TSR]

People aren't saying it's because he's short, it's because he had trouble catching in the Super Rugby final

And it’s a fair question. No doubt if he is picked they’ll try and target him. But my observation was that it was an aberration and I don’t recall it as an issue over the season. But I’m not 100% on that so I was wondering what others noticed.

One thing with him - 2 seasons ago he was a liability in defence. Got brushed off easily and was too weak in contact. Now he is the opposite. He has a good vertical leap and good hand eye - so he should be good under the high ball. I’ll be interested whether it becomes a recurring theme over his career or he can turn it into a strength in his game.

 

[TSR]

Dropping the ten back and moving the blind winger into the line is a standard operation that happens from schoolboy rugby.

Exactly - and yet it still seems to get called out by many as some sort of cop out.

 

[KOB1987]

Exactly - and yet it still seems to get called out by many as some sort of cop out.

Only if Foley was the 10.

 

[TSR]

Only if Foley was the 10.

Disagree - Cooper was called our for it (despite the fact he was brilliant from the back) and Daugunu is being called out because JOC (James O'Connor) does it. I agree though that Foley was often unfairly criticised for it. Pretty sure I made the same comment at least once in his defence.

 

[Up the Guts]

Problem with dropping Foley back was you didn’t get great value on the kick return.

 

[TSR]

Maybe not - and I’m not an apologist for Foley - but it makes it hard when the defence knows you have a ‘don’t kick’ strategy and where there clearly wasn’t a value placed on him developing his kicking game.

In any case, the point is that it is an incorrect assertion that deploying the strategy has anything to do with hiding a player’s deficiencies. Also, the act of playing the 10 at the back - which is straight forward - shouldn’t be confused with Cheika’s barn dance defence which had too many moving parts and ran our wingers into the ground.

 

[Derpus]

Dropping the ten back and moving the blind winger into the line is a standard operation that happens from schoolboy rugby. It’s the cross-field kicks that would be the worry but they’re generally 50/50 anyway (unless you have a freak like Folau) and the ABs are unlikely to be playing any aerial specialists.

It's crazy how little we utilised that blokes best attribute in attack.

Kicking plays in the 22 are typically reserved for penalty advantage because they are low percentage - but fuck man, with him on the field it wasn't that low.

 

[Adam84]

It's crazy how little we utilised that blokes best attribute in attack.

Kicking plays in the 22 are typically reserved for penalty advantage because they are low percentage - but fuck man, with him on the field it wasn't that low.

It wasn’t his catching which made it low success, it was the kicking

 

[KOB1987]

Disagree - Cooper was called our for it (despite the fact he was brilliant from the back) and Daugunu is being called out because JOC (James O'Connor) does it. I agree though that Foley was often unfairly criticised for it. Pretty sure I made the same comment at least once in his defence.

That's all true.

 

[Joe Blow]

It has to be JOC (James O'Connor) at 10. As good as Lolesio has looked he does not possess the positional game of JOC (James O'Connor), who is also an accomplished international fullback/wing. Playing him at 10 just opens up selection possibilities in the back 3. With To'omua at 12 it’s debatable if we even need another 10 in the 23.
Might be better to blood Lolesio against the Argies?

 

[Zero_Cool]

I get that people are worried about Daugunu under the high ball because of a bad final, but what we just ignore the rest of the season because he wasn't excellent for one game?
Daugunu has been too good all season to really justify picking anyone else. Similarly O'Connor has too much form over the season to not be picked game 1. Sure, maybe Lolesio could be better but we've got at least 8 games of proof O'Connor is very good at 10 and considering the whole SRAU season (and pre-Super Rugby season) he's the number 1 guy if only because Lolesio was injured.
Ultimately, flyhalf is a position you especially don't want to rush. You can throw a back rower or lock into the deep end and a team can deal with it regardless of if they sink or swim, but if throw a flyhalf in and tell them to sink or swim and they sink the whole team (backline at least) sinks. Bring him on slowly.

But for something more interesting I saw the ASICS FAN TEAM and they listed AAAAA at LHP and Tupou at THP (or is it the other way around, I can never remember, I only played Hooker ONCE for ONE game so it's all dark arts to me). Thoughts on this? I'd say around the park AAAAA is on par with Slipper & Sio, but he's not played on that side of the scrum for a while. Thoughts?

 

[Adam84]

starting THP and reserve THP are the priority selections over the starting LHP..

That means you keep Tupou and AAA at THP.

 

[TSR]

Is that really true though? No offence, but that’s something Connolly (?) said in the 80s or 90s which people love to trot out. I’m not really sure it holds true today. To be honest, I’m not sure it was ever really true except to the disciples of 10 man rugby - although I fear I’ll be thrown out of the front rowers club for putting that out there.

The more important point to me is that THP & LHP are fundamentally different and if I move Ala'alatoa I am weakening a strength to prop up an area where I am not overly weak. Sio & Slipper are experienced campaigners. Sio hasn’t been in the greatest form, but I don’t think I’m casting him aside.

One thing I would be doing is getting HJH (Harry Johnson-Holmes) to pack a truck load of scrums at LHP at training because I think he is clear 3rd choice at THP but could challenge for a LHP spot.