2012 Rugby Championship Game 2 New Zealand vs Australia - 25 August
- Thread starter Hugh Jarse
- Start date
- Status
Richo
John Thornett (49)
I am a bit surprised to see Stephen Moore sitting 3rd on our MoTM poll.
There are some players in Australian rugby who seemingly can't do a thing right in the eyes of the fans. I'm thinking Giteau, Horne etc. Now this may be based on some reality, but I would add that neither player is as terrible as a lot of people make out. Horne had a solid series against the Welsh, but still had many calling for his head. But this isn't about him, I'm just using him as an example.
I think Stephen Moore is the anti-Horne. If TPN played the same game Moore did on Saturday I would wager he wouldn't be sitting 3rd on the poll. Moore played a solid game at best IMO- made his tackles, took a few hitups, but not much more. The lineout struggled and he needs to take some blame for that. In short I thought it was below the lofty standard he has set for himself. He is a great player but that performance was below his best.
I suppose in light of the performance of the other players he deserves to be in the top 5, but it's not just the ranking, there have been a lot of positive comments as well. And the Anti-Horne theory is one I have had for a while. Does it carry any weight?
.
There are some players in Australian rugby who seemingly can't do a thing right in the eyes of the fans. I'm thinking Giteau, Horne etc. Now this may be based on some reality, but I would add that neither player is as terrible as a lot of people make out. Horne had a solid series against the Welsh, but still had many calling for his head. But this isn't about him, I'm just using him as an example.
I think Stephen Moore is the anti-Horne. If TPN played the same game Moore did on Saturday I would wager he wouldn't be sitting 3rd on the poll. Moore played a solid game at best IMO- made his tackles, took a few hitups, but not much more. The lineout struggled and he needs to take some blame for that. In short I thought it was below the lofty standard he has set for himself. He is a great player but that performance was below his best.
I suppose in light of the performance of the other players he deserves to be in the top 5, but it's not just the ranking, there have been a lot of positive comments as well. And the Anti-Horne theory is one I have had for a while. Does it carry any weight?
.
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
It may not help with combinations, but that sort of basic skills about taking high balls in particular should be with every back given the amount of Garry owens these days. Kahui got moved to the wing having played all provincial and super rugby at 12/13. He worked on this big time with Byrne and as an int'l winger was superb.
AAC (Adam Ashley-Cooper) is pretty good IMO. Beale is a falcon waiting to happen more often than not
ACT Crusader
Jim Lenehan (48)
It was quite strange not seeing him want to take on the line even with the ball he got at 1st receiver. He didn't seem overly vocal either.
I agree completely. If TPN had been the hooker on Saturday and our lineout had been that bad there'd be a hundred posts on here calling for his head for losing the game due to getting the lineout wrong.
Moore was definitely good around the park but struggled at a key facet of his role. When Ben Alexander is good around the park but struggles in the scrum, people suggest he should never play for the Wallabies again.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
The Wallabies lost three lineouts on Saturday.
The first was a result of a poor lift by Dennis - throw from Moore was exactly where it should have been but look at Dennis' arms - only half extended, so Sharpe didn't get to the height he should have been at - knock on by Sharpe.
The second was a case of Romano getting in front of Sharpe but throw was timed correctly, down the middle and at the right height.
The third was a case of Read getting in front of Sharpe but throw was timed correctly, down the middle and at the right height - another very poor lift from Dennis - look at his arms - hard to tell from this rear shot but looks like Samo's lift is also very poor.
Notice a pattern? Wallabies too reliant on Sharpe - All Blacks marking him hard - poor technique by lifters - not poor throws causing the issue.
I'll have a post later this week looking at the wider problems with the Wallabies lineout over the last two matches.
waratahjesus
Greg Davis (50)
The first one shows that the throw isn't timed right as sharpe is leaning back forcing Dennis to not extend his arms inorderto support him. If Dennis arms where fully extended the ball would be behind sharpe.
The timing of the throws were off. Stills don't show it and it isn't down to Moore, it's a team thing. Fact remains thou that if TPN had thrown those balls there would be backlash.
The timing of the throws were off. Stills don't show it and it isn't down to Moore, it's a team thing. Fact remains thou that if TPN had thrown those balls there would be backlash.
Richo
John Thornett (49)
I gave Moore 1 point, but only because I really struggled after Hooper and Timani and felt he at least played a good hard game in tight. I wouldn't be surprised if many came to a similar conclusion.
Anyway, I think you're right about perception and standards. We're all guilty of it to some extent, but some players seem to be lightning rods for disproportionate criticism. In part, I think it's because so many of the current crop of Wallabies have serious flaws. There aren't many automatic selections that people are truly comfortable with - some of those are only automatic because we lack depth behind them, not because they truly demand selection by playing at a world-class level. We're left with few options, all of whom come with trade-offs -- take the centres, of example, where no one really demands selection (McCabe might be the closest, and he's got some very obvious flaws). Instead of saying, "I'd prefer Fainga'a over Horne, but I guess Horne is going okay and Ant wouldn't make that big a difference," we get frustrated and say "Horne is fucking rubbish and ruins everything with his selfish crap" or "Giteau is destroying Australian rugby" or "TPN is the worst hooker ever" or whatever. A little more temperance in writing about ALL our players would be good, IMO.
(I'm not, btw, thinking of any particular comments here, just trying to describe the dynamic).
How can you say that the timing of the throw was correct but the lift was bad with any more authority than saying that the timing of the throw was bad because the jumper hadn't been lifted to the top of their jump when the ball arrived?
Dumbledore
Dick Tooth (41)
He was good for the first 15-20 I thought, faded badly after that.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
Because before posting I studied the lineouts very closely. I wouldn't have made the post without first checking my facts.
Richo
John Thornett (49)
Totally agree. Became anonymous very quickly after a promising start. Was it injury? Or is he just bloody unfit? Or both?
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
If you want to see detail about TPN's lineout issues try this post http://www.greenandgoldrugby.com/who-should-be-the-wallabies-starting-hooker/
I'll post the same level of detail regarding Moore later this week.
No need for that level of detail last week because TPN threw well in that match
Isn't it a bit of a chicken and egg argument though?
Did the ball get to the point where it should be caught too early or did the jumper get there too late?
Dumbledore
Dick Tooth (41)
Unfit I'd say. The whole team looked a step behind the All Blacks really, there's a reason we're losing the collisions almost every single time. Whoever is running the strength and conditioning side of things is not doing a good enough job right now.
Scott Allen
Trevor Allan (34)
Agree with you WJ - if TPN had thrown those three lineouts there would have been an outcry. Many people tend to make comments based on their perception rather than looking more closely.
- Status