2016 Super Rugby Expansion

[Hell West & Crooked]

One major factor affecting the attractiveness of the Argentinian (and Japanese) inclusion would be language... You could make a case for the value of Argentinian Games on Argentinian television, but who in South America is going to watch the Natal Sharks versus the Otago Highlanders, in English? - are they seriously going to commentate these matches from Argentina? Its a nice idea - but when you get into the real detail, I am not sure that it is a terribly major Financial Windfall.... It is going to take generations before anybody truly gives a bugger about some of the Fixtures we already have... The Melbourne Rebels versus Western Province? whatever...

 

[jay-c]

thats the benefit of having one team adopt them>
it would give them a team to identify with, a team to support (a jersey to buy)
one teams games to show on tv
the rebels wouldnt lose any current fans but would gain a whole rugby watching countries support
it would also eliminate the embarrassment of having our teams propped up by kiwis and saffas

 

[jay-c]

the players already complain about the travel to south africa>
while the addition of a couple of argentine teams would make it an amazing competition the players would be fucked with all the travel
id happily see a few of the super 15 teams "adopt" countries i thikn it'd be great
the brumbies promote their polynesian players and the tahs let everyone know about their tongan bros>
aligning with other countries i think is a great idea>
gives people from these countries a team to support-

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

thats the benefit of having one team adopt them>
it would give them a team to identify with, a team to support (a jersey to buy)
one teams games to show on tv
the rebels wouldnt lose any current fans but would gain a whole rugby watching countries support
it would also eliminate the embarrassment of having our teams propped up by kiwis and saffas

and totally eliminates the benefit of having a 5th Team in the first place...

 

[jay-c]

dude having a 5th team is benefiting the kiwis and saffas as much as its benefiting us at the moment if you consider the current (and historical) rosters of the force and rebels
their teams are full of players who will jump at the chance to go back to sa or nz the second a test jersey is offered to them
either that or they hang around till they get an offer to go to france
im not saying we discard our 5th team> im saying the spots that are currently being filled by kiwis and saffas could be better used>
im looking at this from a marketing point of view- the provinces are businesses and this is an opportunity to reach a 'blue ocean' of market share
-assuming you wouldnt lose anything in skill level- which if recruited properly i see no problem in this

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

The question relating to including Argentina is relatively simple. All it would involve is a mandate number of roster positions. Yes, many may point out that this would be taking places from local talent but it would provide benefits as well. I think we can all agree that the SARU will be looking to bring the Lions back to the Super Rugby bringing their contingent to 6 teams. By including say 5 Argentine players per squad in say Aus and NZ we free up enough talent to fill a 6th team each. This would then allow initially for 50 Argentineans to compete in Super Rugby with that number jumping to 60 when both we and NZ move to 6 teams.

This wouldn't put pay to any movement into Asia either as they as discussed earlier wouldn't require either nations to fill their rosters looking more to the PI, Americas and Europe alongside the top line local talent.

 

[en_force_er]

It won't happen. In all likelihood, 2 Argentinian sides may eventually join, in order for the Super Rugby Competition to align with The Championship. Already, I feel the Argentinian Inclusion has made for a much more interesting competition. They WILL beat someone this year. I just hope it isn't us! There is no case for a 6th SA side - their lowest 2 teams are often weaker than our own!

Where would you put this Argy teams? It would need an entire league restructure.

Also, this is the Cheetahs' 3rd good season and the Kings are off to the flying start. Yes, the Lions were run like shit and it showed and the Cheetahs had a week patch but it'd say they're looking good.

Reasons for a 6th SA side? They have the money, the have an extra city of 4.5mil with no Super rugby and from a development perspective they tick all the boxes having 3 professional competitions (Super Rugby and two Currie Cup leagues) and 3 semi-pro comps which are probably more professional than Shute Shield (two Varsity Cup divisions and Vodacom Cup). They also have a nation wide U19 and U21 competition.

Also, they make more money than us and they let us share in it. For god sakes, give them what they want.

In summary:
1) I'd be hard to fit the Argentinian teams into the league, the league structure and fixturing would have to be broken down and rebuilt.
2) SA very much deserves a 6th team, which would probably also require a league restructure but at least would be more financially sound and would open up opportunities for Aus and NZ to add Asian/PI teams into their conference.

 

[en_force_er]

The question relating to including Argentina is relatively simple. All it would involve is a mandate number of roster positions. Yes, many may point out that this would be taking places from local talent but it would provide benefits as well. I think we can all agree that the SARU will be looking to bring the Lions back to the Super Rugby bringing their contingent to 6 teams. By including say 5 Argentine players per squad in say Aus and NZ we free up enough talent to fill a 6th team each. This would then allow initially for 50 Argentineans to compete in Super Rugby with that number jumping to 60 when both we and NZ move to 6 teams.

This wouldn't put pay to any movement into Asia either as they as discussed earlier wouldn't require either nations to fill their rosters looking more to the PI, Americas and Europe alongside the top line local talent.

Soccer fans have a fascination with Argentinian and South American players, signing a South American player makes good business sense in the A-League. The rugby community at large (namely, not G&Gers) do not have an interest in Argentinians. Thus it makes no business sense to sign one.

So, hiring Argentinians makes very little sense in terms of fan investment (which translates to dollars) but I suppose it'd be a nice gesture, though (and I stress this) we owe these people nothing.

It'd be nice to do it for free but the Argie RU is not a charity, it's a sporting body. Save charity for the needy, by all means hire an Argentinian if he's a good player (and there's plenty of them floating around that are) but don't sign them as development. It's not our job.

 

[WorkingClassRugger]

Soccer fans have a fascination with Argentinian and South American players, signing a South American player makes good business sense in the A-League. The rugby community at large (namely, not G&Gers) do not have an interest in Argentinians. Thus it makes no business sense to sign one.

So, hiring Argentinians makes very little sense in terms of fan investment (which translates to dollars) but I suppose it'd be a nice gesture, though (and I stress this) we owe these people nothing.

It'd be nice to do it for free but the Argie RU is not a charity, it's a sporting body. Save charity for the needy, by all means hire an Argentinian if he's a good player (and there's plenty of them floating around that are) but don't sign them as development. It's not our job.

I see opening roster positions more to do with financial development more so than just players. By involving Argentinean players in our Super Rugby structures in significant enough numbers we are essentially assisting with the development of Argentine Rugby and more notably the Pumas. However, by assisting with making the Pumas a competitive force, one with a real shot of winning trophies, the financial pay off from that would outweigh the misgiving regarding the apparent free development the ARFU receive.

By involving Argentine players in Super Rugby you increase the value of Super Rugby in a relatively new market but what you do by increasing the competitive nature of the Pumas you boost the overall value of the Rugby Championship which as last glance was the primary driver of revenue for SANZAR. People want to see high quality and intensely competitive championships and their is value in that. Additionally, as the Pumas become more competitive and hopefully more successful, their exposure in Argentina widens and so does their value come TV negotiations.

It's essentially the same reasoning behind looking to enter the Asian market. To further increase the value of the product. If you could get two competitive Japanese teams rostered by Japan eligible players then that would increase its value further. The reason why this could be done easier is purely just due to time zones.

I agree that there's no real workable means in which to include Argentine franchises as the travel would go from bordering on the extreme to just plain insane.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Where would you put this Argy teams? It would need an entire league restructure.

Also, this is the Cheetahs' 3rd good season and the Kings are off to the flying start. Yes, the Lions were run like shit and it showed and the Cheetahs had a week patch but it'd say they're looking good.

Reasons for a 6th SA side? They have the money, the have an extra city of 4.5mil with no Super rugby and from a development perspective they tick all the boxes having 3 professional competitions (Super Rugby and two Currie Cup leagues) and 3 semi-pro comps which are probably more professional than Shute Shield (two Varsity Cup divisions and Vodacom Cup). They also have a nation wide U19 and U21 competition.

Also, they make more money than us and they let us share in it. For god sakes, give them what they want.

In summary:
1) I'd be hard to fit the Argentinian teams into the league, the league structure and fixturing would have to be broken down and rebuilt.
2) SA very much deserves a 6th team, which would probably also require a league restructure but at least would be more financially sound and would open up opportunities for Aus and NZ to add Asian/PI teams into their conference.

1. The structure of the Super 15 already includes a Plan for expansion - whether it be Argentina, Japan or the US... (You may not like what they have planned), but the conference system already contains plans for expansion. Fact.

2. The South Africans have been all over the shop since the competition began.. Lions, Cats, Golden Cats, Cheetahs.. and now Spears/Kings... Their major City - Joh'burg has been a bust since they began in the competition, and in both NZ and Australia the South African Teams are acknowledged as being poor crowd-pullers... They deserve a 6th Team? No - on that basis you would be giving NZ the 6th Team...

I took a little survey - and even I was surprised by the results - since SANZAR began, in the 17 Seasons that have followed;

New Zealand teams have had '2', Wooden Spoons, Australian '3', and Sth African '12'.

The highest number of Wooden Spoons is '6' - by the Lions / Golden Cats / Cats...

New Zealand teams have had '3', 2nd-last places, Australian '4', and Sth African '10'.

NZ teams have filled BOTH LAST Pos.ns '1' time, Australian '1', and Sth African '7' times.

So out of a possible 34 occasions, South African Teams have finished in the bottom-2 on '22' occassions - '7' of which, they occupied Both last positions...

Year - WOODEN SPOON 2nd Last.
1996 - Crusaders Western Province.
1997 - Highlanders Chiefs.
1998 - Lions (Cats) Bulls.
1999 - Bulls Lions (Cats).
2000 - Sharks Bulls.
2001 - Bulls Blues.
2002 - Bulls Lions (Cats) .
2003 - Lions (Cats) Sharks.
2004 - Lions (Cats) Hurricanes.
2005 - Sharks Lions (Cats).
2006 - Force Lions.
2007 - Reds Waratahs.
2008 - Lions Cheetahs.
2009 - Cheetahs Reds.
2010 - Lions Force.
2011 - Rebels Lions.
2012 - Lions Force.

(Apart from the Australian Teams performing more strongly in this regard than I would ever have guessed) - and given that at the other end of the equation, NZ have '11' titles to South Africa's '3', the facts suggest that South Africa's ability to successfully field a '5th' Super Rugby team is questionable - to field a 6th Team is abject nonsense...

 

[jay-c]

stats can be deceiving> how many teams did sa nz and aus have during these wonder years of aus rugby?

 

[jay-c]

Soccer fans have a fascination with Argentinian and South American players, signing a South American player makes good business sense in the A-League. The rugby community at large (namely, not G&Gers) do not have an interest in Argentinians. Thus it makes no business sense to sign one.

So, hiring Argentinians makes very little sense in terms of fan investment (which translates to dollars) but I suppose it'd be a nice gesture, though (and I stress this) we owe these people nothing.

It'd be nice to do it for free but the Argie RU is not a charity, it's a sporting body. Save charity for the needy, by all means hire an Argentinian if he's a good player (and there's plenty of them floating around that are) but don't sign them as development. It's not our job.

the fans generated by my model of one team adopting argentina would actually be fans in argentina> the countries support for rugby has grown since 1999 and enormously since their 3rd place in 2007. currently their players are scattered throughout europe. so their fans who support rugby have jerseys from dozens of teams. if marketed properly imagine the possibilities of giving a country like argentina a team to support> by having 5/6/7 players in a squad> i recon they'd lead merchandise sales within a few years in australia and new zealand by some margin (black market would dominate too- which isnt such a bad thing)
considering the amount of foreign players in the force and rebels already- they surely wouldnt lose much but could potentially gain soooo much
for teams like the tahs and reds who already have significant (and potential) supporter bases i wouldnt recommend it thou> melbourne has the potential to gain a large following but itll take 10 years

 

[PaarlBok]

1. The structure of the Super 15 already includes a Plan for expansion - whether it be Argentina, Japan or the US. (You may not like what they have planned), but the conference system already contains plans for expansion. Fact.

2. The South Africans have been all over the shop since the competition began.. Lions, Cats, Golden Cats, Cheetahs.. and now Spears/Kings. Their major City - Joh'burg has been a bust since they began in the competition, and in both NZ and Australia the South African Teams are acknowledged as being poor crowd-pullers. They deserve a 6th Team? No - on that basis you would be giving NZ the 6th Team.

I took a little survey - and even I was surprised by the results - since SANZAR began, in the 17 Seasons that have followed;

New Zealand teams have had '2', Wooden Spoons, Australian '3', and Sth African '12'.

The highest number of Wooden Spoons is '6' - by the Lions / Golden Cats / Cats.

New Zealand teams have had '3', 2nd-last places, Australian '4', and Sth African '10'.

NZ teams have filled BOTH LAST Pos.ns '1' time, Australian '1', and Sth African '7' times.

So out of a possible 34 occasions, South African Teams have finished in the bottom-2 on '22' occassions - '7' of which, they occupied Both last positions.

Year - WOODEN SPOON 2nd Last.
1996 - Crusaders Western Province.
1997 - Highlanders Chiefs.
1998 - Lions (Cats) Bulls.
1999 - Bulls Lions (Cats).
2000 - Sharks Bulls.
2001 - Bulls Blues.
2002 - Bulls Lions (Cats) .
2003 - Lions (Cats) Sharks.
2004 - Lions (Cats) Hurricanes.
2005 - Sharks Lions (Cats).
2006 - Force Lions.
2007 - Reds Waratahs.
2008 - Lions Cheetahs.
2009 - Cheetahs Reds.
2010 - Lions Force.
2011 - Rebels Lions.
2012 - Lions Force.

(Apart from the Australian Teams performing more strongly in this regard than I would ever have guessed) - and given that at the other end of the equation, NZ have '11' titles to South Africa's '3', the facts suggest that South Africa's ability to successfully field a '5th' Super Rugby team is questionable - to field a 6th Team is abject nonsense.

Boet you can put up as many stats as you like. Fact is SA have a rugby culture all over SA. Thats the one thing the Kings prove at this year. The Port Elizabeth people were hungry to get their own S15 slice and supporting well. The Kings area have a well structured factory of players from 7 year old to the top structure and the reason for them doing well. Its not even a question of SA getting their 6 team, the questions is when this will happen because SA brings the crowds , the TV viewers for the competition and nothing will stop them.

 

[jay-c]

if sa want another team- further diluting their talent base, im all for it!
they sure can support it, better than we can support a 5th
as has been said- they bring big numbers and big money, keep em happy

 

[USARugger]

On top of all the reasons mentioned here the Argentines have a much closer and more intimate Rugby relationship with South Africa than with NZ/Aus. Based on financial factors and history any Argie franchise would come from South Africa.

The difficulties with geography and the fact that the Argentines have a very long professional history in the French (and to a lesser extent English) clubs and also that the French clubs very much have their claws set in lots of the top Argentinian players on top of them intentionally scouting and attracting these Argie stars makes it seem very unlikely we will see a Super Rugby expansion to match the TRC anytime soon.

In other news Netflix is apparently fighting to begin streaming live sporting events (which I assume will be available for play-back). SANZAR need to reassess their current international broadcast options very carefully and would be absolute fools not to look into this.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Boet you can put up as many stats as you like. Fact is SA have a rugby culture all over SA. .[/quote]

No question they have a Rugby Culture - but as shown, also no question that they struggle to put together more than 3 or 4 strong teams. As I menitioned, they are known in NZ and Australia for NOT drawing crowds, and at the same time, have spent most of the past several years trying to find a way OUT of the competition.

A 6th South African Team is no more likely than the Saffers eventually leaving the competion altogether. I think they would go tomorrow if they thought they had a viable alternative in place.

I used to prefer the option of having the Southern Hemisphere Countries maintain a wholly separate competition; in order to preserve some sense of 'occassion' to North-South Hemisphere Test matches. As things stand today, my attitude to them would be 'Good Riddance' - I am tired of their complaints, and constant internal politics - let the English and the French deal with them...

The NZ and Australian Unions need to start a succession plan for the future - and I believe people within the ARU and NZRU are already aware of that.

 

[jay-c]

if people got bored of the tri nations they are gunna get bored of the binations are hell of a lot quicker
plus- when we lose to nz, its not so bad if they beat sa too

 

[PaarlBok]

Boet you can put up as many stats as you like. Fact is SA have a rugby culture all over SA. .

No question they have a Rugby Culture - but as shown, also no question that they struggle to put together more than 3 or 4 strong teams. As I menitioned, they are known in NZ and Australia for NOT drawing crowds, and at the same time, have spent most of the past several years trying to find a way OUT of the competition.

A 6th South African Team is no more likely than the Saffers eventually leaving the competion altogether. I think they would go tomorrow if they thought they had a viable alternative in place.

I used to prefer the option of having the Southern Hemisphere Countries maintain a wholly separate competition; in order to preserve some sense of 'occassion' to North-South Hemisphere Test matches. As things stand today, my attitude to them would be 'Good Riddance' - I am tired of their complaints, and constant internal politics - let the English and the French deal with them.

The NZ and Australian Unions need to start a succession plan for the future - and I believe people within the ARU and NZRU are already aware of that.

[/QUOTE]



Boet Aus cant even put a provincial competition together. If SA leave the S15 and 4 Nations, your rugby will die a slow dead.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Whilst you are probably right, it doesn't change anything... SAs attempts to get out of the competition are well documented - and have not been abandoned. There was actually some very real speculation as to whether they would sign onto the last deal...

At the moment, the most likely fate of Australian Rugby is a decline into a semi-professional status becauise of the forces of a very competitive market for a relatively small sporting dollar. That is unless the ARU and NZRU can make the right decisions now - without each other, NZRU and ARU would likely both go broke.

I do not mind if the Saffas Go - I don't mind if they Stay...(as long as they cease the whinging), however, the NZRU and the ARU need to be planning for worst-case scenarios, not Best-Case...

As to what would happen if Rugby in Australia went into a steep decline?... The fact (that most people overseas do not seem to understand), is that the large majority of Australians would be unmoved - and many would not even notice - such is the dominance of other Football Codes here.

It is a far from unthinkable scenario.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

dude having a 5th team is benefiting the kiwis and saffas as much as its benefiting us at the moment if you consider the current (and historical) rosters of the force and rebels
their teams are full of players who will jump at the chance to go back to sa or nz the second a test jersey is offered to them
either that or they hang around till they get an offer to go to france
im not saying we discard our 5th team> im saying the spots that are currently being filled by kiwis and saffas could be better used>
im looking at this from a marketing point of view- the provinces are businesses and this is an opportunity to reach a 'blue ocean' of market share
-assuming you wouldnt lose anything in skill level- which if recruited properly i see no problem in this

There IS no problem with it - the Rebels in particular, have extremely generous allowances for importing players - you can be assurted this will be exteneded to the Force in some form, before Year's end...

The fact is, its a 'fairly' open market - they could go anywhere they like to obtain these foreign players - but they go to NZ and SA because the Europeans are too expensive - The Argentinians still to a large extent use the value of the European market - particularly the French Top 14 as their guideline - not Super Rugby...

Gareth Delve is just about theonly "european" player to last any time in Super Rugby - (I am sure he finds the Melbourne weather alot drier and less miserable than Wales). The Rebels also flirted with that english bloke... when he needed a lifeline - but as soon as the money was back on the table in England, he was gone...

In any case, the current situation at the Rebels (and to a lesser extent the Force) is part of a strategy that is intended to eventually see - in 10 years or so - Teams made up largely of West Australian and Victorian Juniors, AND to create a situation where Australia produces maybe 80 Rugby Players of potentially international standard, and not the 30 or so, we currently manage...

The Whole point of our 5th Super Rugby side is short-term pain, for long-term gain.

A more formal 'adoption' or tie-in with Argentinian Players (or any other specific nationality for that matter) will not service this goal in the longer term.

Having said that, the Force or Rebels could bring in Argentinian Players TODAY if they wanted to - they don't because;

a). They do not have the talent-scouting network in argentina that they have elsewhere, and
b). They can't afford them, because they are bidding against the French Top 14 Clubs - who DO have the talent scouting network already in BA.

For what its' worth, I would be pushing for one PNG Super Rugby side, given similar recruiting allowances as the Rebels, and growing Rugby in our immediate region, whilst at the same time, choking a potential lifeline for Rugby League. I think it would surprise alot of people...