2016 Super Rugby Expansion

[USARugger]

They've been victimized by PDV as coach and the damage done by that era to SA Rugby. Time will tell how Meyer shapes up but South Africa still produces a ludicrous amount of young talent. Even more than NZ. Properly harnessed and under the right coaching staff there is no reason they could not play top-flight expansive attacking rugby.

 

[PaarlBok]

Mind expanding on this? The only South African players of note that I know of who are going overseas are: Andries Bekker, Juandré Kruger, Morné Steyn, Bryan Habana, JP Pietersen and Zane Kirchner. Bekker and Habana are both getting on in age and looking towards retirement, they also both have replacements knocking on the door. Steyn is getting on in years and is hardly a top fly-half in South Africa any longer. Kirchner is old and just plain not good. Pietersen and Kruger I would not want to lose at this time but it isn't like South Africa is hurting for talent, to be honest.

You see a lot of exports from SA primarily because SA literally produces more talent than any other nation right now in terms of sheer volume. I would hardly say that any NH teams are "running away with all the top players" unless you're talking about the top players from the last two generations. If you wouldn't mind naming some of the "younger talents" that these NH clubs are "hurting" that'd be great.

Your argument about viewership and ticket sales also entirely ignores the currency exchange rate of the South African Rand. Perhaps you are the one who needs to get their "facts" in order before you do some more "straight talking"..

The most expensive ticket to the Stormers v. Reds game costs R130.00, to the Reds v. Blues is $70.00 and to any Chiefs game is $52.50.

When you factor in the current conversion rates for currency this R130.00 ticket is worth as much as $13.81 Australian Dollars (19.7% of a Reds ticket) or $16.75 New Zealand Dollars (32% of a Chiefs ticket). So every ticket bought to see the Reds is worth 5 tickets to see the Stormers, every ticket to see the Chiefs is worth 3 tickets to see the Stormers.

Even the median ticket prices for the Force and Rebels are worth two to four of the best and most expensive tickets to see the Stormers.

Yes, South African franchises draw the greatest viewership and attendance numbers in the competition. Your dollar is also weak as fucking anything and by virtue of this the actual monetary contribution differences between the three nations constituting SANZAR are not nearly as wide as you appear to believe they are.

Again you bring the money argument into it. Maybe Aus and NZ ask to much for rugby tickets?

You name top players here, the tip of the iceberg. All those players of note is current Bok players, if they want to chuck their Bok jersey away its obvious something is wrong with our system and that is that Meyer pick NH players.
Next level players shifting elsewhere for money just to name the Lions lot since they have been shafted out of S15 rugby is JC, Josh Strauss, Jacobie Adriaanse and to Aus Oosthuizen, Duvenhage, Fenton-Wells, Koster, Louw, Poolman, Roux, (Stormers), Kankowski (Sharks), Arno Botha, Gerber, Olivier, Stander, van Velze, (Bulls) Earle, Johnson, Ebersohn, WP Nel (Cheetahs).

 

[PaarlBok]

They've been victimized by PDV as coach and the damage done by that era to SA Rugby. Time will tell how Meyer shapes up but South Africa still produces a ludicrous amount of young talent. Even more than NZ. Properly harnessed and under the right coaching staff there is no reason they could not play top-flight expansive attacking rugby.

You are very wrong to blame Snor. Meyer even go as far to promote our youngsters to go north and gain experiense up north. He should stick to our SA players when it come to Springbok selection, thats what Aus and NZ do. At the moment its a lose lose situation, we need our star players in SA playing rugby in our competition. Our supporters paid their salaries and now they go north. Vokken sad, thats what money do to rugby.

 

[PaarlBok]

One thing that makes the 6N tournament special is that a spectator can realistically afford to travel to every one on their home nation's matches without mortgaging their house. If SA joined the outrage would be unbelievable.

Obvious you dont watch much NH rugby, when you do next time, just check out the Saffers in the teams, they are everywhere , all over the place and make a special effort to look at the top English club.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

They certainly are All Over The Place...

 

[PaarlBok]

They certainly are All Over The Place.

Look I try my best to talk rugby in the Aus house, you obvious in a trolling mood, so maybe I'll just leave you on your own. No more replies from me on your trolling bits.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Look I try my best to talk rugby in the Aus house, you obvious in a trolling mood, so maybe I'll just leave you on your own. No more replies from me on your trolling bits.

These are Your Words, Not mine...

Regardless, You seem to be very upset that SA Players are plying their trade overseas (in an international Sport. (?)

Personally, I don't see it as a Vokken Shame that some kid gets to play Rugby in the South Of France, and shag Morrocan & Italian Birds all thu his 20s - I just wish it was me...

You seem to think this is all the fault of evil professional Rugby Union... Ok - there is not much one can respond to that... It is the SARU that allows its players to play NH Rugby and still be picked for the Boks (as far as I know - would not bet my salary on it)... and the only alternative to Professional Rugby is to go back to Amatuer Rugby - which would hardly solve your First Complaint... Mostly what I am getting from your posts is you don't like Pro Rugby, and You want the Super Rugby Competition to step in, to take the Place of the Currie Cup... Fine - but these two ideas will have litrtle resonance with anyone not from SA...

There really is not much one can Say... One thing I have said previously is that SANZAR - and Super Rugby - does not exist to fix South African Rugby's Domestic Problems... Or New Zealand's, Or Australia's... Your reply to USARugger tends to suggest (strongly) that when the Lions went down (not shafted, mind you - just relegated, and probably rightly so, given their performances) - that the vast majority of the players seem to have been absorbed by the Stormers, Sharks, Bulls and Cheetahs!

This is hardly the NH's fault - although I like to blame the Poms for most things...

 

[USARugger]

Sorry PaarlBok but you just don't know what you are talking about. The Lions franchise was the weakest in Super Rugby and what exactly did their dissolution have to do with NH rugby? Oh right, nothing at all. On top of that, most of those players are playing better rugby now than they ever did at the Lions. Of all those players you listed literally the only one with Bok implications playing in the NH is Louw. The rest of those players are fringe Springboks or 4th or further down the pecking order for their position.

But yeah because some youngsters can't get a sniff in to their provincial side because of the depth of talent produced in SA so they go overseas instead..yeah huge issue..cough. What a problem to have.

None of the former Boks I listed going overseas this year are top players in their position anymore. Only a few ever were. Such a horribly broken system where you have so many talented young players coming through that most players get pushes out of the Boks before they turn 30..so horribly broken!

Why do you care about Saracens taking some of your mediocre players off the South African landmass? What you really think immense talents like Brad Barrit were going to carry the Boks through RWC 2015? If you really do then I'm afraid someone has been poisoning your braii.

But yeah money totally isn't a factor in rugby and I'm just an evil corporate salve out to destroy rugby by mentioning it. It's not like its the only thing allowing you to watch matches from all over the world in your own living room, or the only reason so many Tests are played each year (which you can also watch from nearly anywhere in the world), or the only reason teams like the Stormers and Kings can play in such massive stadiums, or the only reason this rugby forum even exists for you to shit up.

And yeah PDV definitely isn't to blame for the lack of success of the Boks over the past few years..do you live under a rock?

 

[Oliphant]

Are you actually a Rugby fan and do you possess the most basic skills of comprehension?

If you read my post I note that the average size of the stadiums used in Super Rugby are around 40,000 not that the crowd average is 40,000. My point was fairly clear but I believe you knew that but just decided to continue with your diatribe.

That spike followed and 11% drop off in 2012. You'd also be interested to learn that the 11% drop came off a 20+% raise in 2011. What do you make of those figures?

Having only just recently moved back into the Sydney metro area after spending 6 years living in both the North West of Western Australia and down the South Coast of NSW, it has been almost precisely 6 years since I attended a live game. However, I have watched practically every Waratahs game (and a great deal of Super Rugby) in that time, so I'm fairly familiar with the standards of the competition and the size of the crowds. You don't have to attend matches in person to be able to gauge those elements of the game.

Again, I question whether or not you are a Rugby fan or have actually been watching Super Rugby this season. If you had the quality of the competition this season, which has been excellent, is of the highest standard but again if you acknowledge this your argument would become even more inutile.

Sorry mate - DID mis-read your statement on 40 000! I am a rugby fan of the highest order! have been since i was twelve years old and will continue to be until my dying day. Come from a family that has a rich rugby tradition and achievements - but no need to go into all that here.

It is sad to think that you believe that this season's rugby is of the highest order. I have seen far too many attacking line-outs (within the 22m) go uncontested by the defending side, scrum-halves getting away with diabolical feeds into the scrum (the law is very clear on this), more and more back-line players carrying the ball under the wrong arm and being easily tackled or bundled into touch, tackled players being given royalties when on the ground (the law is very clear on this as well) .......... all which result in poor quality rugby, in my humble opinion.

As for you not attending a game in person in a least six years, do yourself a favour and make an effort to do so if you are indeed a die-hard fan, even if it is the 10th placed Waratahs, and see if you actually enjoy the game with 13 428 people in a 44 000 seater stadium (SFS) or 28 199 in a 84 000 seater (ANZ) - based on Waratahs attendance figures of the first 8 rounds. Awesome atmosphere ....... enough to make anybody want to go back for more!

As for the figures you have quoted, again, please afford me the opportunity to assess your source, as my information on hand tells a VERY different story.

 

[Slim 293]

Sorry mate - DID mis-read your statement on 40 000! I am a rugby fan of the highest order! have been since i was twelve years old and will continue to be until my dying day. Come from a family that has a rich rugby tradition and achievements - but no need to go into all that here.

It is sad to think that you believe that this season's rugby is of the highest order. I have seen far too many attacking line-outs (within the 22m) go uncontested by the defending side, scrum-halves getting away with diabolical feeds into the scrum (the law is very clear on this), more and more back-line players carrying the ball under the wrong arm and being easily tackled or bundled into touch, tackled players being given royalties when on the ground (the law is very clear on this as well) .... all which result in poor quality rugby, in my humble opinion.

As for you not attending a game in person in a least six years, do yourself a favour and make an effort to do so if you are indeed a die-hard fan, even if it is the 10th placed Waratahs, and see if you actually enjoy the game with 13 428 people in a 44 000 seater stadium (SFS) or 28 199 in a 84 000 seater (ANZ) - based on Waratahs attendance figures of the first 8 rounds. Awesome atmosphere ... enough to make anybody want to go back for more!

As for the figures you have quoted, again, please afford me the opportunity to assess your source, as my information on hand tells a VERY different story.

I think I speak for most people when I say..........

 

[Rassie]

You are very wrong to blame Snor. Meyer even go as far to promote our youngsters to go north and gain experiense up north. He should stick to our SA players when it come to Springbok selection, thats what Aus and NZ do. At the moment its a lose lose situation, we need our star players in SA playing rugby in our competition. Our supporters paid their salaries and now they go north. Vokken sad, thats what money do to rugby.

True. I will go even further. SARU have a exchange program with some English and Irish clubs. The Bulls have a strategy in where they use and brainwash them then dump them in Europe.

 

[Rassie]

Sorry PaarlBok but you just don't know what you are talking about. The Lions franchise was the weakest in Super Rugby and what exactly did their dissolution have to do with NH rugby? Oh right, nothing at all. On top of that, most of those players are playing better rugby now than they ever did at the Lions. Of all those players you listed literally the only one with Bok implications playing in the NH is Louw. The rest of those players are fringe Springboks or 4th or further down the pecking order for their position.

But yeah because some youngsters can't get a sniff in to their provincial side because of the depth of talent produced in SA so they go overseas instead..yeah huge issue..cough. What a problem to have.

None of the former Boks I listed going overseas this year are top players in their position anymore. Only a few ever were. Such a horribly broken system where you have so many talented young players coming through that most players get pushes out of the Boks before they turn 30..so horribly broken!

Why do you care about Saracens taking some of your mediocre players off the South African landmass? What you really think immense talents like Brad Barrit were going to carry the Boks through RWC 2015? If you really do then I'm afraid someone has been poisoning your braii.

But yeah money totally isn't a factor in rugby and I'm just an evil corporate salve out to destroy rugby by mentioning it. It's not like its the only thing allowing you to watch matches from all over the world in your own living room, or the only reason so many Tests are played each year (which you can also watch from nearly anywhere in the world), or the only reason teams like the Stormers and Kings can play in such massive stadiums, or the only reason this rugby forum even exists for you to shit up.

And yeah PDV definitely isn't to blame for the lack of success of the Boks over the past few years..do you live under a rock?

The Lions franchise have a Super 10 title. Al tough not accepted by SANZAR we all know that Super Rugby originated from it and in 2011 it should have been the Reds third title not first.

Secondly the Lions was treated badly by politicians and higher officials at SARU. Politics in SA rugby is our one Achilles heel and that is why we fall behind every couple of years.

Thridly yes PdV is to blame for our team not doing as well as they should have. We have had a golden generation put together by white and we gave it to a guy who coached school kids. JdV Jacque Fourie combination was class. But what did he do. Take one step forward then two steps back by running different kinds of combinations in every second game. We should have dominated the Tri nations with the players we had and should have whipe washed the Lions in that series. We did not because he thought Ricky January was better that teams best tactical kicker and creative thinker FdP. Ady Jacobs was better than a strong, creative player and a strong defender like Jacque Fourie. A guy who go play kick and chase rugby with Aplon on the wing is not right in his mind, He started with White's team and he left with White's team who was all past their best.

 

[USARugger]

@Raasie

Yeah I remember all the ugly stuff that went down with the Kings getting unilaterally promised a spot. Was just saying that if it was performanced based the Lions getting relegated to allow another SA franchise (in an area that loves rugby..they fight for #1/2 participation figures every week in Super 15) a shot wasn't totally unfair. It is a shame when politics disrupt a game solely for the sake of politics.

PDV's selections make me actually cringe.

What do you think about Meyer seemingly persisting with JDV? He really didn't seem up to it as captain and was also playing pretty poorly last year. He has shown some flashes in Super Rugby this year but after last years tests I'm still not sold on him even being in the match day squad anywhere but the bench.

 

[Rassie]

@Raasie

Yeah I remember all the ugly stuff that went down with the Kings getting unilaterally promised a spot. Was just saying that if it was performanced based the Lions getting relegated to allow another SA franchise (in an area that loves rugby..they fight for #1/2 participation figures every week in Super 15) a shot wasn't totally unfair. It is a shame when politics disrupt a game solely for the sake of politics.

PDV's selections make me actually cringe.

What do you think about Meyer seemingly persisting with JDV? He really didn't seem up to it as captain and was also playing pretty poorly last year. He has shown some flashes in Super Rugby this year but after last years tests I'm still not sold on him even being in the match day squad anywhere but the bench.

JdV is a very good player. Very good talker to the referee and that is what is needed. Still I think in todays game a forward should be the captain but who was left really? JdP and imported Zimbabwean or Spies? Spies well you want a riot in SA making him Bok captain its your funeral.

JdV needs someone to bring him and the others into the game. At the moment he is playing kick and chase and have to do something on the little ball that do not get kicked away and normally he have to do it with a new center partner every 2nd game. We are still struggling with a replacement for Jacque Fourie.

Key to rugby today is adaption. Can Meyer adapt. Remember we lost Fourie Du Preez who made most of our plays. Steyn is exposed as just a kickbot without him and the other choices we have are kids who are injured and should not be rushed into things. We are so obsessed with a guy standing flat than we forget about just telling and teaching a other 10 to go flatter. Lucky we have very proud and loyal players like Habana who stayed and chased kicks for game after game. Don't blame JP Pietersen for leaving as well as one gets tired of not getting to play and used in a better way. Heynecke Meyer is a coach. Jake White is a tactician. That is the difference and a tactician can adapt.

Politics is part of SA rugby now and that is another reason we will always struggle. Nick Mallet left because of it so did Jake White. Rathbone left because of it Kevin Petersen did and Luke Watson did not want to leave unfortunately. Nick Mallet was forced to select Breyton Paulse over Stefan Terblanche and no surprise when the the quota's were introduced so did the nationals teams performance go down

As for the Lions. They love rugby in that area as well. The ugly thing they did with the Lions was is that they let the investor pulled out from under them and go invest in the Kings. All that imports was his idea then he go and try to make the Lions bankrupt by claiming money back from them. Its hard for the Lions or Cheetahs to compete when unions comes and are allowed to poach players left and right and stock them up in all kinds of competitions. Bulls rugby union can do what they want and even breaking competition rules they are allowed to get away with it. They do not even have much of a development system in Pretoria. They just go around poaching talent then coach the creativity left in them out of them

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

The Lions franchise have a Super 10 title. Al tough not accepted by SANZAR we all know that Super Rugby originated from it and in 2011 it should have been the Reds third title not first.


... Once I had translated that back into Earthling.... So what? It was last Century!... The Reds have 100 years of history playing against the Tahs - and could pretty much not care less about some distant Super 10 / Super 6 Title... If you want to be REALLY Technical they have 1 Super 6 title / 2 Super 10 Titles / 1 Super 15 Title... I just don't hear Reds supporters waffling on about it...

Its in the record books, and has absolutely NO Bearing on what is going on with the Club, NOW or in the next 5-10 years... Its History...

Watching what goes on in South African Rugby is simply hilarious from the outside - and then you get the Saffers online listing all their 'reasons'; political and racial shite... Self-Inflicted Wounds.

I've got 'reasons' I go to the bathroom - Dont Make It Smell No Sweeter...

By the way - The Spears/Kings/Whatever... made a massive statement about the need for a 6th SA Team last weekend against the Tahs. Good To See.

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Sorry mate - DID mis-read your statement on 40 000!

As for you not attending a game in person in a least six years, do yourself a favour and make an effort to do so if you are indeed a die-hard fan, even if it is the 10th placed Waratahs, and see if you actually enjoy the game with 13 428 people in a 44 000 seater stadium (SFS) or 28 199 in a 84 000 seater (ANZ) - based on Waratahs attendance figures of the first 8 rounds. Awesome atmosphere ... enough to make anybody want to go back for more!

.

I have often puzzled about this. The Best Small Stadium I have ever seen is the Hong Kong Stadium - with an electric atmosphere, even with just 25,000 people in it (it holds 40,000). One of the other Top-Shelf Small Stadiums I have seen is North Sydney Oval - which is relatively easy to fill and has a better-than-average atmosphere - Its a beautiful ground, easy to get to, tho' I understand it needs money spent on its surface - which has always been a worry...

The Best Stadium I have ever been in when full (leaving aside Maracana) is actually the Sydney Football Stadium - but it NEEDS its 30 - 40,000 crowd to 'work' - sitting in the front row when that place is full is a wonderful experience...

The Waratah management needs to be looking for a long term, appropriate Home Ground - One that holds up to 27 - 30,000 people and provides a real sense of atmosphere at that capacity (something that rules out a box-type stadium like Parramatta or Concord Oval). If I had managment that was spending money on Fees for a Stadium I could never hope to fill, I would be knocking their heads together til they chime.


Also - If you want to charge MILLIONS of dollars in Television Rights, how dumb does one have to be, to NOT be able to work out that You SELL ONLY TICKETS TO THE STAND (AND LOWER LEVELS FIRST) OPPOSITE THE BROADCAST CAMERAS, FIRSTLY - rather than allow stands on both sides of the stadium to be 15 - 25% full. A game played in front of an APPARENTLY well-patronised stadium always makes for more attractive television.

Once that stand is 80 - 90% full, then you open the lower tiers on the opposite side. Watching the City-Country Mungoes game recently (I was ghoulishly attracted by reports of the crowd figures) I was amazed that the stand opposite the broadcast cameras held FAR FEWER than the stand that was BEHIND those cameras - when you have crowds THAT small, then it only underlines the problem.

Between the Crowds and the Weather, the recent Glasgow 7s did not make for attractive Broadcast Product. The soccer stadium at Port Elizabeth is a good looking stadium, but it looked like a graveyard last weekend.

Yes - there will be occasions during a broadcast when the empty stands are visible. but I can guarantee you that ANY TV Executive, and ANY Sponsor, will maintain that if this can be reduced to 30 - 40 percent of the broadcast, that is much better than 100%! This is an issue that F1 for example, tkaes very very seriously - in order to maintain the value of its product

 

[p.Tah]

Anyone heading to this next week? It looks interesting.

“Unleash the Lions: The Future of Super Rugby.”
With a Rugby focus at a time when the upcoming British and Irish Lions tour has put the game in the spotlight, panelists for this interactive discussion include:

• former Wallaby and NSW Waratahs Director Al Baxter
• Australian Rugby Union (ARU) CEO Bill Pulver
• SANZAR CEO Greg Peters
• Chief Fox Sports Rugby commentator Greg Clark
• Network Ten Head of Sport David Barham.

We’re extremely pleased to be able to bring you this outstanding line-up of Rugby “Insiders” to present, discuss and answer audience questions on the potential local flow on effect of the Lions tour commercially, the future of Super Rugby on expansion, a third tier competition and Rugby 7’s, recent changes to the ARU’s structure, the Wallabies brand, media rights, fan engagement – and more.
One of the globe’s most respected sports broadcasters and interviewers, and Australia’s first female host of a national sports program Tracey Holmes is also back on board as host for the evening.

http://sportsbusinessclub.com.au/ev...g9M2I0MTFmOTJlZDg3YTI4MGJkYTA5YmE0N2E0OWU1ZTY

 

[Hell West & Crooked]

Anyone heading to this next week? It looks interesting.




http://sportsbusinessclub.com.au/ev...g9M2I0MTFmOTJlZDg3YTI4MGJkYTA5YmE0N2E0OWU1ZTY

Please use this opportunity to ask Clarke in public why they persist with Greg Martin anywhere near a Mic...