2016 Under-20 Rugby World Championships - Manchester UK

[Hugh Jarse]

The Big Reds discipline record in Super Rugby, and NRC is OK isn't it?

Not sure too much can be interpreted from the 4 YC in 6 U20 fixtures at Jnr RWC that would indicate he has discipline issues or is an inherently "dirty" player.

He needs to be a little careful that he doesn't develop a reputation, and thus falls on the wrong side of referee and selector prejudices. As a full time pro player for the past two seasons, he should know a little better. A lot of pressure was on his team as a consequence of his actions.

 

[RedsHappy]

4 yellow cards in no more than 6 Under 20 World Cup matches is pretty terrible.

Totally unacceptable by Magnay, I agree BH. To finish his last 2015 U20s Championships match v Wales with a RC (and just before FT when the match was clearly in the balance as I see on the World Rugby site) and then the very next U20s Championship match to incur another RC, also at a critical point, is team-destructive beyond belief.

 

[Eyes and Ears]

Shame they don't also focus on the referees' performances. Ref in this game didn't seem to have a good knowledge of the laws of the game, while the ref in the England/Italy game had no positive influence at all on the breakdown area where players were lying all over the ball or ball carrier the whole game.

Our ref also couldn't or wouldn't see that in many (most) cases the tackled player was not released by the tackler before the latter searched for the ball. Not saying the result was influenced because it went both ways. But one ruling caught my eye. After a penalty awarded to Aus from a scrum, the No 9 (Tuttle) deliberately dropped the ball to cancel advantage and then took an immediate tap kick to play on. Ref called him back saying that a quick tap can't be taken after deliberately knocking on. Is this correct? Never seen it adjudicated lkie that in any game beforehand.

It is common interpretation that if you deliberately offend in order to not use advantage, then a quick tap is not allowed.

What makes you think that the IRB are not focusing on the referee performances at this tournament?

 

[Brumby Runner]

I think the indications are there from the performances of the referees in the Aus/Scot and Eng/Italy games that some more focus beforehand might have done some good for the games. Guess it's wait and see if there's any improvement in upcoming games.

 

[Hawko]

I'm not sure that the result in this game has caused some posters to view it with a jaundiced eye. To my mind:

1. We outpointed Scotland everywhere but on the scoreboard. It was one of those games where nothing will go right despite the best efforts of most. We crossed the line twice but had the tries ruled out (correctly) for foot on the edge of the line. Score those two tries and its shut the gate.
2. Captaincy decisions were poor. In the last ten minutes, when we needed to score, we had to get the ball out of the scrum quickly. So what did we do? Run the clock down.
3. We were lucky not to have our 8 carded for a high shoulder charge. It was arguably worse than both Magnay's offences. Given how well the replacement 8 went, he should be benched next game but he has the (c) beside his name.
4. Magnay has got off far too easily for his disgraceful effort. He has played at Super level and should therefore be more experienced/knowledgable/mature than most of the squad. Yet, despite last years RC, he went for two totally dumb YC's. Once he had got one, he had to pull back on his aggression, didn't he? No, he just upped the level. Bully mentality. Learning experience for him I suppose, but that effort just put us out of the finals.
5. Some of our backline work was very good, especially with a man down, where we still managed to generate a man over with one less.
6. Our tight five was totally on top, especially in general play, and I thought they played really well.
7. Some of those boys will be playing Super Rugby in a few years time and looking good doing it.

 

[Thinker]

Clearly the answer is that we picked too many Queenslanders.

As a die-hard Qlder, I totally agree.

The u20s comp was a bit of a joke and while the QRU wanted to bathe themselves in glory, it was clear the other states did not treat it with the same effort that QLD did (basically hiring 2 coaches just to do it).

I only caught up with the match this arvo and I cannot recall such a poor performance from a skill and decision-making point of view. It felt like there was a handling error every phase.

As someone who has watched AT coached teams for years in Brisbane, I never understood his appointment (or anyone who watch QLD Country last NRC). His main positive seemed to be he wasn't Nucifora. And while Nuci's winning percentage might be lower due to one really bad year 55% vs 62%, Nuci coached teams finished in the top 4, 3/4 years he coached them. Thommo is yet to achieve this once.

This isn't a pro-nuci post as I wanted him gone as much as anyone, but we don't have player pathway issues in this country, we have coaching pathway issues.

 

[girtbysea]

As a die-hard Qlder, I totally agree.

The u20s comp was a bit of a joke and while the QRU wanted to bathe themselves in glory, it was clear the other states did not treat it with the same effort that QLD did (basically hiring 2 coaches just to do it).

I only caught up with the match this arvo and I cannot recall such a poor performance from a skill and decision-making point of view. It felt like there was a handling error every phase.

As someone who has watched AT coached teams for years in Brisbane, I never understood his appointment (or anyone who watch QLD Country last NRC). His main positive seemed to be he wasn't Nucifora. And while Nuci's winning percentage might be lower due to one really bad year 55% vs 62%, Nuci coached teams finished in the top 4, 3/4 years he coached them. Thommo is yet to achieve this once.

This isn't a pro-nuci post as I wanted him gone as much as anyone, but we don't have player pathway issues in this country, we have coaching pathway issues.

Developed print finish as to which rugby term I hate the most, "the rugby pathway" or "the box kick". Both yet to provide any consistent positive outcomes.

Whatever happened to the rugby selector.

In olden times there was a panel of wise men who watched a lot of rugby across a wide spectrum and put their heads together to come up with squads and teams. Seems that role is now out sourced to the player managers who ear bash and threaten (he's off to the darkside if you do not sign him, or even worse he will come back and marketing can get a headline!) The Qld 20's squad/team had only one selector. If you were not ex churchie or wanting back in from league there was a lot of time spent holding hit shields or back in clubland. Not sure what happens in other states but Qld has a very poor recent history of retaining talent if has not been part of that ' identified' at school. No room for late development. The kiwis do this so much better than we.

 

[I like to watch]

........ but we don't have player pathway issues in this country, we have coaching pathway issues.

Can't it be both?

 

[Dazzling]

I'm not sure that the result in this game has caused some posters to view it with a jaundiced eye. To my mind:

1. We outpointed Scotland everywhere but on the scoreboard. It was one of those games where nothing will go right despite the best efforts of most. We crossed the line twice but had the tries ruled out (correctly) for foot on the edge of the line. Score those two tries and its shut the gate.
2. Captaincy decisions were poor. In the last ten minutes, when we needed to score, we had to get the ball out of the scrum quickly. So what did we do? Run the clock down.
3. We were lucky not to have our 8 carded for a high shoulder charge. It was arguably worse than both Magnay's offences. Given how well the replacement 8 went, he should be benched next game but he has the (c) beside his name.
4. Magnay has got off far too easily for his disgraceful effort. He has played at Super level and should therefore be more experienced/knowledgable/mature than most of the squad. Yet, despite last years RC, he went for two totally dumb YC's. Once he had got one, he had to pull back on his aggression, didn't he? No, he just upped the level. Bully mentality. Learning experience for him I suppose, but that effort just put us out of the finals.
5. Some of our backline work was very good, especially with a man down, where we still managed to generate a man over with one less.
6. Our tight five was totally on top, especially in general play, and I thought they played really well.
7. Some of those boys will be playing Super Rugby in a few years time and looking good doing it.

Totally agree Hawko. It's taken me a couple days to put it in perspective having only watched the game live on Tuesday but both our starting front row and our replacement front row were very good. Save one lapse in concentration when we got shunted on a Scottish feed we dominated. I thought Fifita did a great job on Zander Fagerson to the point where the Scottish supporters sitting near me started to make excuses like " he clearly a marked man" or " they have singled him out because of his reputation" I thought Rob Leota was an improvement at 8 when he came on. Maclean Jones looked a bit out gunned at 8. Simon Kennewell has some serious wheels and if wasn't for a desperate ankle tap in the first half he was in for a try. It will be very interesting to see how The teams front up for their next matches, I suspect Scotland will struggle big time against England as the based on what I saw there will be quite a few players who will struggle physically. I think there were at least 2 or 3 HIA's and one stretcher case. I think there lock and captain was a casualty. Australia on the other hand will destroy Italy.

 

[GPS Fantastic]

Let's hope so

 

[William88]

Can't it be both?

More avenues need to be opened for players, but with a clear link to the progression of how they get there.

 

[waiopehu oldboy]

Adam Beard's gouge ruled reckless rather than deliberate, he's been given nine weeks so misses rest of U20's plus start of next Pro12 (they don't have much of an off-season, do they):

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/nine-week-ban-for-wales-u20-lock/

Kandaurishvili still to face the judiciary, presumably today so Georgia can rejig their 23 in the event he's suspended (biting = 6+ weeks?).

 

[The sage]

As a die-hard Qlder, I totally agree.

The u20s comp was a bit of a joke and while the QRU wanted to bathe themselves in glory, it was clear the other states did not treat it with the same effort that QLD did (basically hiring 2 coaches just to do it).

I didn't think it was a joke at all and I don't think the players thought it was a joke either. More fools them for taking it as a joke; they can't complain about the selections then, can they.

I think we need more of this type of competition to "harden" the team for the next level. Fair enough if we get out-classed in further competitions, as long as we make the effort before the competition; and I think the U20's comp is probably the best format to date.

The only other solution I could think of is to have a NRC type competition with kiwi provincials as a preliminary game to the S16 games.

 

[Happy to Chat]

Don't the Kiwis pick an u19 side the year before as a base to work on and develop over a longer period in the lead up to their u20 RWC year?


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[Highlander35]

U19 NRC Sides! Woo!

 

[Hugh Jarse]

The have an Under 19 ITM Cup type tournament over a week or so in a central location.

The Extended Training Squad for the next years U20 Team is chosen from that tournament.

They have no U20 games, just a couple of training camps where the squad (chosen from the U19 tournament at the end of the previous season) is whittled down.

We don't have a Under 19 tournament but we do have an U20 tournament.

 

[The sage]

History says if you want to improve your rugby, play the best (even if we get smashed!).

I remember that vividly from the early 70's when Qld used to play Canterbury and Co. every year. Certainly didn't hurt Qld and Australian rugby.

 

[Happy to Chat]

I'm sure a lot of those u19 boys chosen are pushed up into their senior comps to get experience. Ours on average play mostly colts comp, which IMO is on par with the top schools comp.


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[The sage]

^^^^^^^
Agree with that sentiment, but the players in Colts, whilst sometimes are not as skilled as upper level schoolboys rugby, they are bigger and hit with more force.

The NZ system has about 28 (?) unions for their colts to play in, and 10 in the ITM (Mitre 10) Cup; therefore the ability for more of their colts players have a wider diversification of avenues to play at a higher level rather than the more concentrated Australian competition.

I'm reluctant to put 19 year old's in senior competition in Australia; unless you like a lot more injuries. Think 20-21 is the right age for senior competition, unless you are a superstar.

 

[Happy to Chat]

^^^^^^^
Agree with that sentiment, but the players in Colts, whilst sometimes are not as skilled as upper level schoolboys rugby, they are bigger and hit with more force.

The NZ system has about 28 (?) unions for their colts to play in, and 10 in the ITM (Mitre 10) Cup; therefore the ability for more of their colts players have a wider diversification of avenues to play at a higher level rather than the more concentrated Australian competition.

I'm reluctant to put 19 year old's in senior competition in Australia; unless you like a lot more injuries. Think 20-21 is the right age for senior competition, unless you are a superstar.

Agreed Sage but I'll give you one example. Young kid Tyler Campbell (TSS 2015), never got looked at here in Qld and moved to the Chiefs and was picked in the Waikato NPC squad last week (19).


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